Micro vs. Macro

I don't think micro and macro are mutually exclusive. Players with good micro can econ just as well. You need both.

Most importantly for the macro players: scout, scout and scout. You need to know when to stop building eco and getting a fleet together. Planets and eco are no good if you let the enemy destroy everything you built.

Should you get caught with your pants down without a proper fleet to repel the enemy, sacrifice that one planet instead of sending a half assed fleet to the slaughter without accomplishing anything. Build up fleet with repair bays and stop the assault on the next planet. And bait the enemy with fake attacks to make him leave your structures and planet alone while you build fleet.

I personally play micro, but almost never rush.  Microing early game while keeping up with the macro through the ET is a good way to make use of your resources.  Unless outnumbered 3 to 1, I won't lose ships early game just because of the way I move them around, and even then I might lose one...  I take all abilities (yes all) off autocast unless I've already killed everything in the well save for some flaks at which point I might set my egg's nano to auto...  One shot kills, so it gives me the opportunity to work elsewhere...

Careful of the macro term, Amish.  While micromanagement has a somewhat well accepted definition among RTS gamers (the details may vary, though), macromanagement has no such accepted definition. 

For instance, a Starcraft player will usually define macromanagement as balancing worker and factory activity, so you don't have long queues at one factory while another is idle or huge sums of one resource and little of another.  This is wholly incompatible with the version of macromanagement you have presented (and, in fact, the starcraft player's definition isn't applicable to Sins at all).  Because of this, I just avoid the term macromanagement altogether, as there are just too many people who ascribe completely different meanings to the word. 

Vasari SC being perhaps the sole exception due to phase missiles.  With full upgrades, 30% of their damage will bypass shields, hitting only the guardian's weak hull.  Unfortunately, the introduction of a Halcyon puts an end to any pretense of using strike craft.

Wish they'd remember the last target I'd assigned them and prioritize other targets of the same type.  So annoying that every time a fighter squad kills its assigned target it seeks out the nearest bomber squad, even if it's on the opposite side of the gravity well >_<

I've kinda wondered about that Darvin tbh w/ you. 30% to hull is nice....but my question would be how often have you run into repulse and you have above 20% phase missiles?

It helps to be sure, but I kinda gotta figure that bypassing shields on a unit as tough as the guardian basically negates shield regen. TEC is still screwed.

but then if vasari has phase missile upgrades an advent player only needs a domina with perserverence to keep the gardian alive.

ya... it was scarry as f**k the first time i had repulse used on me... just watching my marza getting pushed around was... ho man... just so wrong. (it got away to fight another day... but still... guardians are evil.)

Like anything in the Advent vs Vasari matchup, you really have to be one step ahead of your opponent all the way along.  Frankly if it's equal economies, research, fleet, and skill, then Advent has already won.  I personally do try to get my phase missile upgrades way up there against Advent.

Ok, may as well combine topics now, this is a copy and paste from the Topic "Micro and Macro SoaSE Tips"

I think you should just make this an all-encompassing topic Amish, maybe add some of these points to you original post? With enough input maybe this could also get stickied.

Transfusion_1:

"Thanks for that input Deceiver, I appreciate it. But, that only half answers my questions...

So the questions repeated (also changing the wording because they were not outlined very well...)

1. What is pinning, and how do you most effectively do it?

2. When retreating individual units they are getting focus fired, what is the best way?

3. How do you win with scouts vs LRF's? Do you micro them to the backs of the LRF's or do you just take them on face to face with superior numbers + less cost. Note: I am just interested in micro tactics for flanking any unit really (using a units speed to gain advantage) & how to best achieve it. [Picture answer preferable]

4. If you were in a battle Assailants vs Illuminators, (you being the Assailants), is there a way to stay out of range of the Illuminators and wear them down slowly whilst reducing your casualties? Note: I am interested in micro tactics using ships RANGE to benefit, this is just an example. [Picture answer preferable]

5. Is there a way to tab between the research tree's after pressing F2, or do you have to manually click on each tree?

Basically to sum up this thread so far (yes I am going to overuse numbers in this post, by using them again!):

1. You should memorise the "gridkeys" the game provides to increase micro. (these are QWERT,ASDFG)

Ie. At the start of the game to improve speed you should click the planet (this is an example build order), then WS (then place capital factory) WA (automatically places a crystal extractor), then AQQ (depending on how many metal/crystal extractors you have on your home planet), Ctrl+F6 (Twice to sell 200 metal), F7 (To buy 100 crystal), GAQQ (to que [at least] 2 scouts, which should then each be control grouped (1,2,3...etc) for ease of use).......etc.... continue on like this micro'ing scouts, building research labs (civic or military, map dependant), que'ing capital ship - and setting rally point towards the nearest asteroid.

2. You should then go about pinning your capital planet and important structures (frig factory, repair bays) (I don't completely understand how to do this but at the moment I can see it being very beneficial).

3. Along with pinning you should assign control groups (Ctrl+#) to certain structures/planets/ships. You definetly want to assign a control group to your capital ship, and set a rally point from your frigate factory/ies to your capital ship. Note: Double clicking your group Ie Ctrl group 1 (just the number one twice) make the camera pan to their location. This followed by pressing 'X' will zoom the camera to an ideal position. (this X button combining the groups is a very useful way to micro scouts @ the start of the game...)

4. As your fleet starts to come into play, assign hotkeys to each unit type, so you can focus fire their hard counters when the battle begins (aka fighters against LRM's, but also staying away from flak). When selecting targets hold down shift+right click to focus fire each ship individually. Note: you can select all units of one type within a gravity well by holding down Alt+LeftClicking on a target unit (aka LRM's).

5. If you have a large bunch of utility frigates (or ANY ship for that matter), you can cycle through your selection by pressing the tab key, and going backwards with the shift-tab key. This is useful for casting different abilities such as heal and repel - remember to use the hotkeys for these abilities to further reduce the mouse movement, ie QWERT.

6. Use F2 to go to the military/civil research tabs (F3 for pirates). .. this is where I don't know how to switch between them faster.. (I can only use the mouse at this stage).

7. Hold down alt to show unit ranges and health/antimatter (useful when trying to focus fire, and using abilities).

8. If you are attacking an enemy ship and it decides to run away, you don't want your whole fleet to follow it, potentially moving closer to danger. Simply press the S key to make them stop (from memory it is S?), sadly you will then have to reassign them focus fire targets.

All of these things, once mastered will improve your micromanagement and macromanagement, by making the amount of clicking you have to do less."

Also commenting on the Macro/Micro differences, to me...

Macro: Is balancing your RESEARCH, STRUCTURES, and ECONOMY well. Knowing when is the best time to research something and when is the best time build your economy and ships. A good macro player to me is someone who doesn't float, but is also using all their resources wisely.

Micro: Is basically organising and moving/attacking/scouting with your UNITS, making them as effective as possible in encounters, knowing when to retreat etc.

Some people often think of micro as "whoever can click the fastest (Highest APM - Actoins Per Minute) has the best micro", while this should be true, any needless clicking is wasting time and a high APM also creates for a good mAcro player.

Couldn't be more false.  It's not about how much you click, but how much you're achieving with those clicks. 

In fact, the biggest mistake novice RTS players can make is going too fast.  There's a common misconception that you need to click fast to be a high level player.  Most people have sufficient hand-eye coordination to get whatever they need to do done.  The problem is, they don't do the right things.  "It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it" would be the right phrase to describe this.

I personally view micromanagement as the application of strategy and tactics.  On its own, strategy is just an idea.  Micromanagement is the process of taking that idea and turning into a set of button and mouse clicks.  Of course being able to click faster is an advantage, but the value of your micromanagement is not measured in the number of clicks but rather in the amount of strategy you were able to apply with those clicks. 

Again, I reiterate that macromanagement is a bastardized term that has dozens of varying definitions floating around the internet, and is largely useless as a result.  Your definition, Transfusion, is basically "resource management", so call it that.  The word "macromanagement" doesn't even make sense in its etymology, unlike micromanagement.

Note that I said "to me" as in, this is what it currently represents "to me" but feel free to burn me to the ground for stating my opinion...

And when you say:

What I really said was this:

Some people often think of micro as "whoever can click the fastest (Highest APM - Actoins Per Minute) has the best micro", while this should be true, any needless clicking is wasting time and a high APM also creates for a good mAcro player.

So instead of just saying that I am false... you could half agree with me and then state your opinion, without belittling mine - especially when it is very similar to what you said. That said if you were actually trying to agree with my statement that said "SOME PEOPLE (meaning not necessarily me) OFTEN THINK (not always) OF MICRO AS...", you put it in a funny way, and I apologise for the reaction. I can see how you may have mistaken my sentence at the end where is says "a high APM also creates for a good mAcro player", but what I mean by this is that if you are using those actions wisely, it obviously does contribute alot to your macro (aka resource management) as well as your micro.

I don't want to get into a large debate here, but as a new player, writing on the forums for the first time, statements such as quoting me and then saying "couldn't be more false" doesn't really encourage me to participate infact is leads me away from saying anything at all.

Sorry, misread you.  I keep hearing the usual "micro = fast clicking" stuff and so I've developed a knee-jerk reaction to it. 

You just happened to step on one of my biggest pet peeves; sorry for biting your head off.

you have to be very, very aware of yoru surroundings in the game when microing, nto so much when ... mass managing is what i would like to call it. when i micor i tend to focus on the battle at hand, sort of like a soldier with tunnel vision duirng a firefight. but mass mngmnt ppl can spend more time zoomed out there for more aware. anyway this was just a warning to anyone trying out micro tactics

I think of the two concepts of micro and macro as tactical and strategic.

Micro 

Actually controlling ships as groups or individuals, ship as effectively as possible, removing autocast and using specials directly.

Making personal decisions about where to place structures in orbit.

Most micro is conducted at the system level, ie around a planet, roid, etc.

Macro

Most macro I think is done when the map is expanded right out, showing most systems around a star.

Using economics to outproduce and enemy.

Streamlining most important research to have the greatest effect on logistics/production (ie resource,planet upgrades, culture etc)

Macro decisions are which planets and systems you take and hold and why. This in turn should feed directly into the tactics used to acheive these goals.

Discussion

The thing I love most about sins is the freedom players have to use different techniques to acheive their goals. Some rush, some eco, turtle or combinations of all of the above. I think both concepts of micro/macro apply heavily in sins and are not mutually exclusive of each other. Macro strategy should feed into micro and define how and why things are attacked and defended.

Compare seeing micro/tactical use in 2v1 situations to destroy enemy fleets vs massive economics and growth to simply expand, tech up and crush through weight of numbers.

I know the above sounds contradictory however I use it as an example of two different methods for victory. At the end of the day, the best use both when and as much as they can. The use of hotkeys to speed up the amount of decisions and commands issued per second does have a big impact. However, if those decisions, whilst fast were wrong, then you lose anyway.

The thing that most impresses me about the great players is when you view the replays you can see that one player will have multiple fleets moving around the map with different objectives, some small some big. They are making lots of decisions all over the map which at the strategic level is very impressive.

The more stuff you get going on at the same time = the more stuff your opponent has to deal with

If they take too long, its normally only a matter of time before they are simply overwhelemed with ships, eco and decisions, so the player collapses. You see this in MP all the time, players stagnate, no intell, they finally get a look at the map and go F$#k this, Im dead and RQ. - OODA loops FTW

Again, big thanks to all the peeps out there helping in and outta game with advice. Really enjoying sins of late due to the amount of learning per game, but also the general level of comraderie. Each game things keep getting simpler making everything else more complex which is what makes gaming fun.

Ideally, you would use a combination of the two.  

At the start, I micro constantly and won't set a single ability to autocast.  I choose every single target for my Egg and its nano.  I also manually place everything.  To ensure the life of all my ships, I move my assailants and choose FF and SF targets constantly. By the end, I will have more planets than my enemy.

In the middle, since Vasari tends to lose strength here, I go to full macro and eco-boom.  I entrench the border worlds and wait.  By setting up phase gates and culture centers one planet back, I can ensure that a fleet can travel anywhere and I will have the advantage.  My objective at this point is to create a military stalemate and ensure that I have a superior economy.  At this point, I build multiple factories on the border planets, capable of manufacturing a fleet at a moment's notice.  Next up comes research.  Lots and lots of research.  The opponent will attack throughout this time, but most likely only minor offensives.  To a technologically superior fleet, all his ships are free exp for my Egg and Kortul.

The end comes for my opponent when he sends in a large, single fleet.  I move my resources there, but am still outnumbered.  Now, I upgrade the next three fleet supply levels as well as a couple cap crews.  Now, I simply que a few hundred ships and send them into battle.  As my phase turrets get killed, I replenish most, but I save a few slots and build PJI's.  Slowly, I go from having far fewer numbers to far more.  By the time my enemy realizes he's lost the battle, its too late for his fleet.  While retreating, his remaining ships get slaughtered by my vastly superior numbers.

Once he retreats, I set all Kosturas to auto (if I have any) minus one or two for manual use.  I send my fleet after his beleaguered ships.  Without an organized fleet, he has no chance to defend against my onslaught.  Between my Vulkoras and Egg, his planets become mine.  Once I have control of about half of his planets, I entrench all those who are on the new front lines.  I rebuild the few ships I lost and wait once more.  By the time he has built up a second fleet to attack (or he waits for more than 30 minutes for my attack at which point I just go after him anyways...) I just absorb the exp and then counterattack again.  This time though, I don't stop until I have captured all his planets.

The point is, both microing and macroing are critical to win.  An insanely heavy microer can defeat vastly superior numbers (ie: I sometimes play as Advent and can defeat fleets 3-3.5 times my size without using guardians much at all), but can't hold off forever.  He needs something to replenish his valuable ships.  Alternatively, a super heavy macroer is not by any means efficient.  They essentially just throw money at the problem.  If you own the vast majority of the planets, just attack (unless you are like me and see how high you can get your caps' levels each game so you let them live for the exp) them.  You'll win.  

Once again, micro and you will beat superior numbers.  Macro and you'll have vastly superior numbers.  Alternate between the two (macro in peace, micro in war is what I do) and you will become a far better player.

I understand where everyone is coming from and I agree completely, I would however like the attention more focused towards actually how people achieve greater 'micro'. [See the questions listed above in my previous posts, as well as ways to improve micro].

Maybe if Raging you could also (please) change the topic name to:

[How to Guide] Micro and Macro

or

[Ways to Improve] Micro and Macro

or

...something like that?

Thanks for the iunput so far everyone, much appreciated.

To suggest an answer to an earlier question about using range...would it be at least somewhat effective to set the fleet to a loose formation? It would require more adjustment time between targets for the Illuminators.

Or you could jump them like Seige Tanks from Starcraft. With two fleets of assailants, you could attack the Illuminators with one and set the other one to run. As soon as the Illuminators switch targets, switch group tactics. It takes a lot of attention, but it might work...

Another Micro tip:

When your opponent is fond of focus firing, send the unit being focused on through or around the enemy formation. If he's not paying attention his ships will turn and chase your 1 unit, while the rest of your fleet pummels his from behind. Its easy to figure out which one is taking the pounding as it will be the first one to light up red, or will often be your cap ship

This would actually have the opposite desired effect, as the illuminators would be able to hit more of your fleet with side beams. Ideally against a fleet of illums, you want to have your ships as close together as possible, cutting down on the illums use of their side beams, and thus cutting down on their total dps. Loose formations are really only useful when dealing with subverters.

or a really easy way to take out newer players is to get 10 overseers and hope they focus fire you cap while your ships take out their entire fleet, doesnt work against skilled players but it is fun to do sometimes.

I would love to hear some discussion on how the top players actually use their fleets..

Fleet

Cap ship - Tick 1 (Ctrl + 1)

LRF (Ctrl +2)

I rally all Flak (Ctrl + 3) and carriers (Ctrl + 4) on the cap ship.

Fighters and bombers are normally (Ctrl + 5)

Fleet enters system, cap ship is on hold position and gets moved by me personally. The LRMs go straight out and attack, and I micro them as much as possible, whilst using the strikecraft to attack targets seperately.

The idea is that I can move the static part of the fleet by controlling one capital ship, and the quick response part (LRM) is another small fleet that moves independently of the main during combat. Its also easy to pull the other parts of the fleet out or back as each has their own key. Of late, guardians have been getting their own number too, for repulse during big combat. The other thing is you can hold shift then press 2 + 3 to select all LRM + flak or whatever during combat.

Production

Ctrl 8 + 9 + 0 are normally on local frigate factories so I can simply press a button, build ships that then rally on my capital ship, and keep commanding in combat without leaving the tactical view during combat. This is really usefull during big combats. Also, what makes this REALLY usefull, is that you can very quickly set rally points on systems and build small harrasing fleets and send them off quickly to multiple systems.

Administration Ctrl + 7

Of late during big games (ie 4v4 5v5) I have been selecting all of my planets, roids, etc and putting them all together.This way I can manage and oversee all the systems and their upgrades easily. When I press 7 it gives me all my planets and I can select the green pop button, and then use tab to scroll through all systems to check on pop + logistics upgrades. Then I move to structures button and use tab to scroll through all. This lets me very quickly check that all planets have mines, upgrades, trade etc without having to select them all slowly. I cant always fully upgrade a system after colonising so this is really usefull for mid game when managing a growing economy is so important.

So the ideas above are that I use the 1-6 keys for fleet + 7 for planets + 8-0 for factories.

Keys tips - Sorry if Im teaching ppl to suck eggs.

If you hold shift + alt together then click on one ship it grabs all of that type, then can keep clicking on other ship types to add them to the group. Great for grabbing all flak and LRMs or all bombers and fighters together. You can also do this via the tactical menu on the left hand side of screen. The more I play, the more time I am spending using that menu system, its pretty powerful.

Shift Key - USE IT. This allows multiple orders to be given, great for movements or selecting ships one by one to be attacked in order.

Would LOVE to know the shortcut key for swapping between all ships + strikecraft in the system (its the button just under the planet icons on left hand side of screen)

This is where Im at currently. Learning to play sins has meant having to develop a personal methodology for managing large amounts of stuff. Would love to hear more about how others do it. I have been playing single player a bit of late to simply practice new keyboard commands, the QWERT, ASDGF set is awesome and so is caps lock however learning to make this really intuituve and less mouse driven is taking a while but is paying off in dividends. Strongly suggest all newer players try this, set ai on normal or hard for practice and simply learn to use the keys instead of focusing on the game. In some ways it feels slower at first however you are actually using less actions for greater benefit. This is so important mid to late game when there are multiple fleets and objectives underway all over the system.