Raging: there are 3 frigates that are damage dealers in the game: LRFs, HC, and Carriers. Flak was not meant as a damage dealer so it had its damage vs frigates nerfed. It can still be used sorta against LRFs, but to counter illums u usually need more flak than enemy has Illums, so its not real counter. LF will never be a damage dealer, we know why. But they do hold a decent role in coutnering other stuff. Personally I rather these were buffed vs carriers, then have carriers nerfed like they were.
In ideal setting you will have choice, kinda choose your poison, where you can pick what damage dealer frigate you want to fleet. This is where all frigates are relatively successful, nothing is OP. But you will always have one fo these 3 as backbone of your fleet. ALWAYS. That's how the game is designed pretty much. So you will always have people who rush for either of these 3 ships. It's kinda obvious.
Personally I don't mind so long as all strategies are viable, and some work better than others against some other strategies, but not against all other strategies. Stuff becomes OP when not only does it fair well against some strategies, but when it also fares decently agianst anything else u can throw at it. Like illums now. This we should avoid.
Now the dawn of the Carrier, which would be like 1.01? (1.02 was first carrier nerf i think, though even then this sitllw orked) Was not a perfect time, but it was more itneresting. The uniqueness of carrier kidna made it that you couldnt go 100% carrier. Most sucessful fleets would be 50% carrier 50% something else: This else would be LFs, LRFs, HC, or even Flak. This made for some vary good battles, and good strategy.
Now what I think we want to be at a place where there are as many strategies that work as possible so the game does not become 1 dimentional. 1.01 had many good strategies, but they all kinda evolved around the carrier so it pissed people off. We need to work something esle that works where carrier is not something you need to coutner with a carrier, but Flak does not automatically make carrier fail. This might need redoing how carriers work.
Simple blanket nerf on LRFs will not benefit the game. If there is to be a nerf it needs to be precise. So more testign is needed. You might find that when u put say Destra vs LRMs, you come out with exactly what you would expect. HC on top but not by Huge margin. This needs further investigation.
I never said just a simple blanket nerf. I said if a blanket nerf was done, other things would have to be done to balance the game.
When I said 25%, I was just pulling what sounded like a reasonable number out of mid air. After doing the test with Uber, I saw that a simple 10% increase in total health and a 5% increase in damage was enough to completely tip the scales in a battle, so at a bare minimum I want all of the LRFS to be balanced (Yes, I said all). This doesn't mean the blanket nerf, however, that's one of many changes I'd make to the game.
What I do know is that after the test with the Kodies, a 10% nerf is all that would be needed. Now that I have a test to measure by, I see that 25% is a bit excessive.
I also disagree that there are just three damage dealers in the game.
The ships in this game are:
Scouts, Light Frigs, Long Range Frigs, Seige Frigs, Anti-Strikecraft Frigs, Colony Frigs, Carrier Cruisers, 2 Support Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, Assault Cruisers, Fighters, Bombers, and Capital ships.
Capital ships and Support Cruisers fall into the same group in that they aren't the heart of the fleet, but rather great support, so they're not the damage dealers. Seige Frigs and Assault Cruisers are specialized units, so they can be crossed off the list. Carriers themselves are not combat units, so we can cross them off that list.
This leaves Scouts, Light Frigs, Long Range Frigs, Anti-Strikecraft Frigs, Fighters, and Bombers. You've said that scouts, light frigs, and anti-strikecraft frigs aren't damage dealers. Even with the current state of balance in the game, I have to disagree, or better put, add a clause to what you've said.
There are 4 offensive units (technically 4 since fighters and bombers are in carriers) that are damage dealers in the game
Flak are horrible at going on the offensive because of bad damage multpliers, but are great on the defensive. Plop a bunch of flak next to a starbase with 5 repair bays and a couple hangar bays and you're made in the sun. Never going to do anything offensively unless your opponent spammed fighters, but defensively made in the sun. Ever been on the recieving end of a 2v1?
Scouts are pretty specialized at the moment, but since a majority of the community goes LRF, scouts are legitimate defenders and attackers against the most commonly used strat in this game. Scouts can kill seige frigs, mines (though you'll never see 'em used by humans), long range frigs, colony frigs, and other scouts. That's not a horrible list of potential targets for the cheapest fleet in the game. Not to mention scouts are incredibably tough. They just don't do that much damage. Great defensive unit in a lot of different situations.
Light Frigs I agree, but I wish this wasn't true. I can understand that light frigs can't be all powerful, but to have absolutely no role as they do now is a testament to the current balance of the game.
I'm still conducting testing, and need to do a test with LRFS vs. HC (Most likely Kodiaks). What I have seen so far is that Illums crush Enforcers, and with equal spending, just might beat Kodiaks.
LRMS are surprisingally close to Illums in stats, so I'm guessing I'll get the same results there too.