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Attacks from above? What?

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Attacks from above? What?

from Sins Forums

I played an online match today.  One of my allies who was flanking me got knocked out by a scout rush, so I built up some defenses to guard to guard that flank.  The attacking fleet was not that large; again, it was mostly scouts (about 45 of them, also had about 15 assailants, 3-4 carriers and an eggship).  My defenses consisted of a full combat/defense upgraded sb, a few hangers, and some repair platforms.  He attacked while I was helping another ally, this one on my other flank, so my forces were elsewhere at that time, and I thought that my defenses were more than sufficient, and under normal circumstances, they would have been, so I didn't bother to send anything that way.  When I checked in on it a few minutes later, the enemy fleet was high above my sb, where it could nibble at it without the sb firing back.  I went back and viewed the replay to see how that happened, but that didn't shed any light on it.  The fleet was moved out of firing range of the sb and was given a few move orders until the move order went high above my planet.  In my experience (and most everybody else's, I would assume), Z-axis in Sins is very limited, almost to the point of not even being there for all intents and purposes.

The fact that the sb couldn't even attack the fleet is an indicator that this isn't even supposed to be possible.  If there is no Z-axis control in the game, how was this even accomplished?

multiplayer
55,422 views 78 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top

But a player's voluntary control may not be good...
End of quote

yeah, thats what i meant, AI isnt as smart as a human so we need to give it a push or leg up every once in a while...

Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top

Z-axis would be a problem to keep, because FOR EXAMPLE how would you make turrets more useful then? They would be totally useless as they are.

Increase their range? That would defeat the purpose of LONG range frigates, which now outrange turrets (and that was one of their roles), leaving you with carrier spam.

End of quote

I don't think you would have to increase the range of lrfs if you increase the range of the defense platforms.  The Advent have the Ajudicator, the TEC have the Ogrov Torpedo Cruiser, and the Vasari have that whole mobile SB thing that makes them immune to the problems initially brought up in this thread in the first place.  On this note, I haven't really seen much use online of either the Ajudicator or the Ogrov, so maybe increasing turret range a little so they outrange lrfs and not those cruisers makes them actually useful.

I will agree, however, that there are most likely a lot of changes that would need to be done if the Z-axis is to be fully incorporated into the game, many of which probably haven't even occured to us yet because they would have to be demonstrated in order to be discovered.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

You would have to drastically change things if you made Sins full 3D...  Perhaps you would give a cieling and floor limit to the game so you don't fly way over things or way under them...  That would help...  You would still need 3D clusters, for turrets and mines, but they wouldn't have to be quite as bad as before.

Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top

How to get around the problem without changing code? lol, it's an ancient japanese secret! But I'll give you a hint, do starbases HAVE to be limited to the same plane as mines and other structures? I'm sorry if I'm being a smart-ass; I just feel as though the best lessons are usually the ones you learn yourself.

No, the answer is that starbases AREN'T limited to a two-dimensional plane of exsistance. You can, for example, place one directly over a planet... if this is a small planet (say a dead asteroid,) then you're plretty much proteced from planet bombardment. Placing starbases a little "higher" or "lower" also has the added benefit of making your SB.... well, I think you all get it. Yes, the z-axis is flawed, but using your brain power can help turn the tide of many battles! Be creative!

Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top

that's not the problem...  We were talking about the standard defenses...

Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top

 Placing starbases a little "higher" or "lower" also has the added benefit of making your SB.... well, I think you all get it.
End of quote

And watch as the enemies fleet flies safely under/over your SB (assuming TEC or Advent), where they can't be fired at.  Saves the enemy the trouble of having to use the Z-axis.

Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top

You misunderstand me, when placed at a higher or lower altitude the starbase no-longer suffers from that deficiency; it gains the ability to face its target correctly. It takes a little bit of finesse though.

Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top

Just place your starbase over the defensive structures.  Give the starbase whatever bombardment protection it has and thats the best you can do to get around the whole obvious flaw in the system; shitty solution but the only one that comes to mind...

Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top

theorycrafting.
show a replay of it working. I think you're day-dreaming.

Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top

The whole point of this was to make you figure it out for yourselves though... why would I want to totally give it away? God forbid you just try it; trust me, it works. You really limit yourself to a small defesive area when you do this however...

Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting anteachtaire, reply 60
The whole point of this was to make you figure it out for yourselves though... why would I want to totally give it away? God forbid you just try it; trust me, it works. You really limit yourself to a small defesive area when you do this however...
End of anteachtaire's quote

or waste our time testing a theory you could just be pulling out of your ass for a laugh...

you are the one making the claim, the onerous is on you to prove it, not us

stop being lazy

Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top

You misunderstand me, when placed at a higher or lower altitude the starbase no-longer suffers from that deficiency; it gains the ability to face its target correctly. It takes a little bit of finesse though.
End of quote

Yes, the SB still suffers.  Move the SB up, the enemy fleet could still go under it, and have an easier time of it at that.  The same applies for a "lowered" SB.  Defensive structures above/below the SB might help though.

Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top

Have you tried it and it doesn't work, or are you just giving me a hard time 'cause you think I'm a noob? Whenever I do this the starbase gains the ability to tilt towards its target.

Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top

Yes, I've put a SB on a different plane, however I haven't faced an opponent that micros the fleet directly above/below it since the game in my posted recording, so I still don't know if putting the SB on a different plane magically makes it immune from attacks directly above/below it.  My guess is no, simply because the SB would have to tilt around 70 degrees.  If you have proof that it does so, please, post the replay.

Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top

Making Sins more completely 3D would require a huge overhaul of the game and its mechanics, thats out of the question at this point (pray for something like that in Sins 2). More practically there are two easy fixes for this problem.

1) Remove the ability for manual z-axis movement

2) Allow defensive structures and starbases a more vertical firing arc.

Being able to move Z-axis manually I think is the best option (since it really does negate so many of the entrenchment features its kinda ridiculous), but both should actually be done for those gravity well glitches that come across random maps every now and then.

Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting xxSithLordxx, reply 7
sound like my fleet has visit you   and yes it was z axis movement

and to let you knew most dmg come from assilants   that was 15 and nano from my space egg

the fleet was not bigger becuase i was in eco after my enemies dead so i only build a few carrier for cut your air support.

9000 hp sb with 4 repairpads down in 5 min   without a loose on my side    
End of xxSithLordxx's quote

 

sounds more like an exploit then skill.

Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top

not necessarily with the Z-axis part. It's a hotkey that has to be manually bound; and xxSithLordxx apparently abuses it A LOT.

Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top

just 'cause your head is too far up your ass to learn and experiment doesn't mean that they're abusing it. Really, I'm having to really wonder and scratch my head at all of you americans; you do realize there's a reason pride is such a bad thing?

Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting anteachtaire, reply 68
just 'cause your head is too far up your ass to learn and experiment doesn't mean that they're abusing it. Really, I'm having to really wonder and scratch my head at all of you americans; you do realize there's a reason pride is such a bad thing?
End of anteachtaire's quote

Ummmm.... really? Your going to bring nationality into this?!? Tisk Tisk.

Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting anteachtaire, reply 68
just 'cause your head is too far up your ass to learn and experiment doesn't mean that they're abusing it. Really, I'm having to really wonder and scratch my head at all of you americans; you do realize there's a reason pride is such a bad thing?
End of anteachtaire's quote

 

Fail for so many reasons... For instance, im Australian, i know nowadays there isnt much difference between the two... but there is nothing wrong with pride. without pride, there would only be debasement and indignity, leading to am eventual breakdown of morals and ethics.

And btw... utilising a tactical flaw within a game that cannot be effectively (or at all) countered exclusively to the detriment and disregard for all other strategies, in order to win a game is abuse, in every sense of the word. Pride has nothing to do with it, though having some sense of honour and fair play is certainly involved...

pull your head from your ass and grow up

Reply #71 from Sins Forums Top

just 'cause your head is too far up your ass to learn and experiment doesn't mean that they're abusing it.
End of quote
Learning and experimenting is what we're ALL doing. Using the Z-axis to attack a STARBASE that for some IDIOTIC reason can't shoot UP is ABUSING.

Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top

I have known about this for a long time now and learned it the hard way.Still I have never used it on anyone.Luckily not many use it and I hardly ever use sb in a game anyway.Ill never use this tactic simply because its basicaly cheating and to win by cheat is no fun.Neither is micromanaging placements so I dont get cheated.They should just fix it along with other problems.I would like to see sins 2 fully 3d without phase lanes and games that are made up of different solar systems instead of one big one that are still playable in a resonable amount of time.

Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top

I guess I've just been reading too much Machiavelli. Yeah, 3d sins w/ out phaselanes would be the dogs bollocks, no doubt about that.

Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top

Just to tell you guys a fun trick:

If you move a ship towards the center of a grav well, and then have it move up or down in a manner which causes the angle of ascent to skim the edge of the planet in question...

...the ship will move up (accelerate) VERY quickly to the top/bottom of the planet, you can have it do the same towards the opposite pole immeadiately after it reaches the zenith... which will basically make your ship move over and under the planet and exit the opposite side really quickly... w/ proper waypoint set up you can typically do this faster than anyone can respond- and it will give you a good head start on an escape to a repair bay on the other side of the planet or what have you.

This doesn't seem to work going around the planet horizontally.

Why? It's a nifty side effect of how SOASE works... your ships move faster towards the center of a gravity well and slower when moving away from the center of a gravity well... which is something a lot of people forget about! That and I think that the Z-Axis acceleration is also likely a bit quirky.

Also, I made a post about how to use the Z-Axis a long time ago, which you can find here, in reply 5.

Yeah... the TEC/Advent starbases need to be able to rotate along all directions so that it can bring it's full firepower to bear on a target above/below them. As for range issues... that's just something the game is quirky with on the Z axis, everything seems to have a longer range than it should (except apparently, starbases and structures judging by this thread). I'm sure they could synch the distances up properly by tweaking a few variables somewhere.

I've never really tried it, but when placing structures, can you adjust their Z-Axis placement?

-Itharus

PS: I totally agree that using the Z-Axis to invalidate mine fields or abuse the firing arcs of TEC/Advent Starbases is 100% complete and total bullshit. IMO, mines should have Z-Axis movment, and spring up or down really fast to catch ships going above or below them (just measure proximity via the XY distance)... it seems like the simplest solution for mines.

Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top

IMO, mines should have Z-Axis movment, and spring up or down really fast to catch ships going above or below them (just measure proximity via the XY distance)... it seems like the simplest solution for mines.
End of quote

i dont know if its possible, but i think an extended Z-axis blast range would be more appropriate than moving the actual mine...

that is, on the usual X and Y axis, range is what it is now, but targets anywhere up to maybe 10,000 (placeholder number) units from the mine on a Z axis should be damaged as though they were right next to the mine...

otherwise... remove the ability for the player to give manual Z-axis commands...