Refineries: Worthless or Critical?

refineries affect each extractor in the local and adjacent grav wells. and up to 3 refineries can be affecting each extractor

For Advent the Trade Ports in Refinery Mode do not affect adjacent grav wells, or do they?

Anyway Volt_Cruelerz is right, Advent Refineries do pay off only for colonies with high allegiance, many extractors (at least 3) and with the additional research in Resource Focus and Enhanced Focus to match the alternative income of 1 cred/sec in trade mode.

No disrepsect, but you guys are a little off. If anything, the advent ability on the tradeport is the worst of the three for getting additional resources.

I only use them on planets with 4 mines (Ices and Lavas). Anywhere else I stick to tradeports. Tradeports bring in ~1.6ish cred per second by default. The longer the trade line, the more that number grows. To give you an idea my record is 4 cred/sec per tradeport with a 14 planet trade line (a little overkill sure).

If you're looking for an econ upgrade with advent, I recommend the +10% allegiance upgrade at tier 8. Better upgrade than getting resources from Advent tradeports.

The way refineries work is the building will send out a ship to every mine in the grav well and then 1 to every mine in adjacent grav wells. This includes neutrals. I don't know the % off the top of my head, but you get a % back. Because of how this functions, extractors should be placed at planets where there are many phase lanes connecting to many mines. Find 1,2, or possibly 3 spots in ur empire where there's a bit of a hub (4+ phase lanes, I've seen 8 before). Build three refineries. Three because that's the limit for how many refineries that can mine the same extractor.

If you get it in the right spot, three extractors should bring in about 1-2 extra metal and 1-2 crystal. Not a bad investment if you find the right spot to use 'em.

1. If I am not mistaken a single trade port delivers 1 cred/sec. Each jump adds another 0.1 cred/sec. Thus with 14 planets in line and therefore 13 jumps that would add up to 2.3 creds/sec. So unless they have changed the values it would take you 31 planets in line (!, no circles) to get a 4 creds/sec trade port.

2. And again if I am not mistaken the Advent Resource Focus only works on extractors WITHIN THE SAME WELL, thus making it only worthwhile on colonies with high allegiance and many extractors. (unless changed with a patch where I missed the patch notes).

 

Please correct me if either of these points is wrong.

You playing on all fast? A single tradeport doens't deliever 1 cred/sec on all fast.

No, I am an old man, I'm playing on all normal speed  

 

That might do the difference.

I'd agree with you... up until the very late game.  The thing is, the other refineries only stack up to 3 (4 on uncolonizable gravity wells), whereas Advent ones can stack indefinitely.  Ever seen induced reverence, allure, and culture (+50% loyalty) on a 4-rock ice with 6 resource focus refineries?  Absolutely awesome, but you won't even consider that combo until very very late game.

However, the Advent refinery has several weaknesses.  First of all, you need its high level efficiency upgrades to make it viable, making it essentially more late-game than allure of the unity and you almost never see it as a result.  The second issue is, of course, that it doesn't affect adjacent gravity wells.  Depending on the map, this may not be a big deal... or it could make a world of difference. 

No, it wouldn't.  Refineries would be scaled down with trade ports, so their relative resource acquisition rates would be the same.

Wow, and I thought all on fast was still slow.

Thank you Amish, Darvin, and Extremor...

 

Question answered.

I think if refineries cost half the cost they do now, meanign they cost as much as a tradeport, then people would use em. Now I don't even botehr researching them.

I can only speak for TEC, but you should research refineries, even if you don't use them. The subsequent upgrades to cargo holds also increases capacity on trade ships. A trade port income can jump from, say, 2.0 to 2.4 just on these upgrades.

Late game when you research more fleet capacity, that will take a big percentage out of your metal and crystal income. At this point you will really need those refineries.

the problem with refineries and resource focus tradports is that by the time these things could actually turn a useful profit for you in the typical multiplayer game, the game will have already been decided anyway.

TEC & Vasari Refineries can provide awesome income if you place them well, assuming you are not overstocked on resources.  It is not uncommon to find hubs where a refinery has access to 12-15 extractors.  And rarely you find a sweet spot with close to 20 extractors accessible.  If you are overstocked on resources, this isn't as big a deal, but most people are credit rich and buying it off the black market.  An extra 1.5 - 2.0 per second of needed resources is very good income, especially for someone who does not have a super long trade route.

Some multiplayer games I don't use them, but if I find a sweet spot and the game doesn't look like it will end soon, I will actually rush to slap up 2-3 optimally placed refineries....they take a little longer to pay for themselves due to the research and building costs (15-20 mins), but at that point, they provide very solid income comparable to a tradeport with an obscenely long route.

Advent resource focus is usually a bad deal.  The math only clearly supports it for 4 extractor planets with high allegiance or resource bonuses, and then only if it is saving you from purchasing the resource in question off the market.

 

 

Not necessarily...  If you have an ice world right beside you with 3-4 extractors, I'd say stick six TP's on there and set them to RF.  That is a very nice boost from the beginning.

What did I say? I said 4 extractors at high allegiance. Near the HW, the Allegiance would be high enough, and since you most likely need crystal early in the game, then YES, this spot would be suitable. Not that you are likely to have RF researched this early in the game. When your trade ports start producing close to 2 cr/s it gets real questionable to even be using RF on 3 extractor worlds, which is why most people don't use RF unless they have a world with boosted allegiance or resource bonuses.

QFT

Even as vasari.

These toys are overly expensive for the tiny boost to income they provide.
Trade Ports > Refineries, big time, even being T4 against T2 (for Vas).

One thing I like about the Advent tradeports is that you can turn resource focus on and off. That means when you get one of those planets with 4 extractors early in the game, you can build the tradeports for trade income, and when you get max resource focus and you're short on materials, you can switch to resource focus. And should you somehow get more material than credit income you could always turn it off and go back to credits. With resource extractors your stuck with using that logisic slot for materials, and you can't change it unless you scuttle it and build a trade port, which is not very efficient or good use of resources.

[quote who="GoaFan77" reply="17" id="2331622"]And should you somehow get more material than credit income you could always turn it off and go back to credits./quote]

Only time that ever happened was my first game as Vasari in which I spammed refineries because I didn't think that trade ports did much of anything...

I only research them so I can use cargo holds, cause I like being the first to dominate the economy.

lol, I always find that Advent is actually the best way to go IF: you use a starbase with full upgrades for loyalty in conjunction with 2 or more trade ports using extractor focus; plus culture of course. This takes a lot of capital to do but I usually play maps like Systems of War or Gateway. Using this tactic I'll usually be next to last in planets but first in resources. The culture I need to use gives me the added bonus of room to expand. If you know what you're doing its much better to have 5 highly developed planets rather than 10 LIABILITIES! Remember, so long as you can outproduce your opponent, and outlast them, you'll win. Refineries are OK but are suited for late-game over expaned/bloated empires.

 

The thing is that 10 less developed planets cost a fraction to set up compared to those five highly developed ones.  In the long run the larger empire will have more highly developed planets and crush you if he's any competent (the AI isn't competent, by the way).  Moreover, your potential trade network is much better on larger empires.  Against competent opponents, your small efficient empire won't actually survive long enough to reap the benefits you talk about.

That's true of the AI, but presume that against a player at your own peril.

Darvin pretty much nailed it. Getting a planet, whatever 2 pop upgrades, and buying just the mines is one of the most efficient ways to spur an economy. I do this up until I get to the planets that have the 25% allegiance. I tend to be pretty low in credits early with any race mainly because I don't invest in credit producing incomes. Tradeports and planet pop upgrades are expensive. Mines are dirt cheap. I typically get up to about 5 metal and 5 crystal per second before I think about rade ports. Remember, 1 metal = 4.5 cred, and if there's one thing that planets provide plenty of, it's minerals.

I don't really start building tradeports/refineries until I've either expanded as far as possible or I've destroyed someone. You just really don't have the time to enjoy mass eco unless you have allies on both sides of you or you knock someone out early. That's experience talking.

I'll admit that what you say is usually true, but you're forgetting about the maps I'm talking about; they're pretty big and ideally suited for defense. Gateway is... a little bit different and who says that you can't take out anyone early? By the time the main enemy fleet can even reach you you can destroy them with a fleet half their size, so long as you have a starbase. And maybe a couple of gaurdians. If you have both you can probably take over their homeworld, right? The advent colonize ability makes up for the cost of planet development to a large extent; giving you a headstart with how many trade centers you can create. Which usually results in exponential gains. Population is small beans compared to tradecenters because you can make such quick gains. But with the advent you can have both. I guess its just because the advent are so damn good on defense against enemy fleets and the other players weren't as experienced as players like Raging Amish. Yeah, I'll admit that this doesn't work when someone is knocking down your front door with spam... usually I just turn down the ship and build speeds so players can't be quite so cheap; send the pirates after their asses a few times at the start of the game too... pirates are weak as shit though. To tell the truth, I usually just don't even bother playing the game online anymore if it isn't a modded one. *spam* mad scientist mod rocks, keeps people from spamming to a certain extent; it makes you have to really think shit through a bit more. *end spam, sorry*

but yeah, I play online and understand that this wouldn't really work on a small map 1v1. AI does suck pretty hard... it shouldn't be possible to take on a team of 3 or 5 unfairs or however many and win.

While loyalty and your trade port length are wild cards here, population upgrades are usually more lucrative than building trade ports.  It takes a while for population to build up, but typically one population upgrade raises tax income more than one trade port will generate, but at a lower cost.  It's a good idea to max them out on all your inner worlds, and only start neglecting them as loyalty plummets.  Furthermore, as I've mentioned elsewhere, capturing more planets and building additional extractors is a way better deal than building trade ports.

Advent has a viciously powerful fleet.  Talk to any player and they will agree that this is the fleet to fear.

Slower game speeds actually makes "spam" better, since it takes much longer to react and counter an enemy.  More than anything slow game speeds throw off people's sense of timing. 

Honestly, though, if you blow all your cash on economy and a huge fleet comes knocking on your door, you can't call it "cheap".  Anticipate your enemy's capabilities and ensure you're ready for them.  It'd be remarkably boring if the game was just a rush to see who could build the biggest econ because rushing didn't work at all.

Pirates, IMO, aren't worth paying for.  You're losing money on bounty and your enemy is getting experience off them.  They aren't even strong enough to present a real threat.  Unless the pirate base is a thorn in the side of the enemy's empire, the location they attack is usually so predictable they can just station a capital ship there to milk the raids for experience.

 

Wow man, nobody here can just take advice. lol! Oh well, suit yourself (: