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eoncommander
eoncommander
Join Date 10/2008
+3

capital ships

August 5, 2009 11:15:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

so, i had a thought. a suggestion, actually, for the developers. a big one, one that they might be able to do with the third expansion, but something that i would like to see. when i first bought this game a year ago, the thing i was really looking forward to was titanic clashes between huge warships. i don't believe that this vision ever existed in this game. think about it. capital ships are only used as support ships. i would love to see the return (or rather, the genesis) of capital ships being the biggest, baddest ships around, leading fleets into battle, and actually fulfilling the purpose they were designed to do. hence, i would love to see a buff to all capital ships some time in the future.

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eoncommander
Whiskey144
Join Date 06/2009
+58
Reply #1 August 5, 2009 11:20:28 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

well, there's plenty of mods out there that make capitals big bad warships. That, and there is always the option of the TITAN. The BIGGEST, BADDEST, CAPITAL SHIP EVER CREATED.

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eoncommander
WHIPperSNAPper2008
Join Date 03/2008
+126
Reply #2 August 5, 2009 1:18:19 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

I hope you didn't get the idea of a "Titan Mod" from Unreal Tournament III; that mod is the worst thing to happen to Unreal Tournament capture-the-flag since...since UT 2003 or UT3's stillborn release itself.

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eoncommander
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #3 August 5, 2009 1:18:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The problem with big units is the decisiveness factor, something that invariably means that in any well designed game lots of small units beat a few big units of equal value.

Take for example a case where there is one unit with 4 hp and 2 damage attacks, fighting two units with 2 hp each and 1 damage attacks.  On the first shot, the big unit deals 2 damage, instantly killing one of the small units, while taking 2 damage itself.  On the next shot, the big unit kills the second small unit, but only took 1 damage (because it already killed one enemy attacker).  Hence, even though their stats were "equal", one big unit is better than two small units.  This only becomes worse as the size difference gets bigger.

For this reason, in practically every game you will ever play the smallest unit is almost always the most cost-effective, and the biggest unit is almost always the least cost-effective.  In Sins, what that means is that capital ships will never match up to frigates for pure fighting strength, and the game would likely become a boring capital-ship-free-for-all with few frigates if they did.

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eoncommander
Whiskey144
Join Date 06/2009
+58
Reply #4 August 5, 2009 1:36:47 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

no, I just thought that since the OP was looking for bigger badder caps, that maybe he should try making his own super-cap mod.

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eoncommander
eoncommander
Join Date 10/2008
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Reply #5 August 5, 2009 3:50:05 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

For this reason, in practically every game you will ever play the smallest unit is almost always the most cost-effective, and the biggest unit is almost always the least cost-effective. In Sins, what that means is that capital ships will never match up to frigates for pure fighting strength, and the game would likely become a boring capital-ship-free-for-all with few frigates if they did.

this is true. i have two counters to that. one, you can only have 16 capital ships, max, for... ummm... two months away from school turns your brain to jelly... 800 fleet supply. that leaves 1200 fleet supply, more if you play large fleets, more if you are vasari and do the research, that you would still fill with frigates and cruisers that can be invaluable to your war effort. two, i'm not looking for super capital ships, but in the battle you described, i see no reason why the cap ship shouldnt win. one battleship should beat two frigates, thats the way war works.

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eoncommander
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #6 August 5, 2009 4:32:44 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

one, you can only have 16 capital ships

You only have sixteen.  That would be a travesty if 16 wasn't already more than enough. 

Yes, it in theory does prevent massing of capital ships, but in practice that's more than you would ever conceivably need.

 

but in the battle you described, i see no reason why the cap ship shouldnt win. one battleship should beat two frigates, thats the way war works.

My example was a simplified case designed to convey the basic idea.  Obviously a capital ship can and does beat two smaller cruisers, but cost-wise it's equivalent 5-10 (depending on what you're comparing it to).  If you want to use actual stats from in the game:

Kodiak heavy cruisers:  1650 shield/health each, 18 dps each

hypothetical super-Kodiak (equal to five kodiaks):   8250 shield/health, 90 dps

level 1 Marza (costs about as much as 5 kodiaks):  4025 shield/health, 55 dps

As we can see, this hypothetical super-Kodiak (something I hope I've already demonstrated is too strong for that cost level) is roughly twice as powerful as a level 1 Marza dreadnaught.  The Marza does improve as it levels up, and also has loads of awesome special abilities, so at the end of the day if it were any stronger there would be some serious balance issues.

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eoncommander
eoncommander
Join Date 10/2008
+3
Reply #7 August 5, 2009 4:43:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

You only have sixteen. That would be a travesty if 16 wasn't already more than enough.

Yes, it in theory does prevent massing of capital ships, but in practice that's more than you would ever conceivably need

i respectfully disagree. a buff to capital ships would necessarily have to include a nerf to its speed. if you were only fighting with capital ships, firgates and cruisers would just run around them. those kodiaks would be able to get into the enemy's rear and ravage lightly defended areas. plus, you could also slightly increase the cost for the cap ships

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eoncommander
satthukaraoke
Join Date 02/2006
0
Reply #8 August 5, 2009 7:08:33 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's basically fall down to the game model, and Sins is just not a model for it.

 

Most games (including Sins) use a simple attrition model. Meaning when something is called "more powerful", it almost come down to higher numbers.  It means something no matter how weak if amass enough number can beat something else no matter how powerful it is. It's like saying if you gather enough people and firearms, you can eventually take down a tank even if the only things you use are pistol. Needless to say, that is obviously not the case. Real life damage model is not just number crunching, it's an actual grade/type system. You don't build a tank so that it can last longer against small firearm, you build a tank to make it invicible to all but the most powerful armenment that can penentrate its armor. You can't hit a modern Jet unless you have a radar system that can actually track it ...etc...

 

Translate it into a game would mean something like the model you see in Freespace 2. It doesn't matter if you fire your laser over an hour at a Destroyer, you'll never do any damage. You need actual bombs to do something. What it means for a game like Sins? It means that Capital Ship should be made inmune, and I mean immune to all incoming fire except from the heaviest Cruiser, defense Platform, altilery Unit and other Capital Ship. Giving them more hitpoint/Fire power won't really do anything since I don't think it's the correct way of doing it.

 

But alas, it's how most RTS games are, they're not simulation games.

 

 

 

 

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eoncommander
eoncommander
Join Date 10/2008
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Reply #9 August 5, 2009 10:47:55 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Translate it into a game would mean something like the model you see in Freespace 2. It doesn't matter if you fire your laser over an hour at a Destroyer, you'll never do any damage. You need actual bombs to do something. What it means for a game like Sins? It means that Capital Ship should be made inmune, and I mean immune to all incoming fire except from the heaviest Cruiser, defense Platform, altilery Unit and other Capital Ship. Giving them more hitpoint/Fire power won't really do anything since I don't think it's the correct way of doing it.



But alas, it's how most RTS games are, they're not simulation games

right, that's all true, but we can make it more like real life in the end, if not in the means, by buffing cap ships

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