As I said, it's clever the first time, but the second time you're waiting for them and then it becomes just plain stupid.  This is a trick that only works once; if the enemy is anticipating it the strategy just doesn't work because the cost of countering it is maybe one tenth of the cost of enacting it.

Not commenting on the next patch for now.

OK, I'm gonna bump my little rant again. The AI is as idiotic as ever with siege frigates. Devs, is there any hope? The AI suicides its siege frigates, and then cripples its economy and fleet capacity to replace them. It must stop.

I agree wholeheartedly with what the OP and everybody else here has said.

The AI Siege Frigate madness is just that, madness.  Nobody in their right mind would build that many siege frigates (in fact most people just don't build them at all they suck), and especially nobody would attempt to replace them after they got destroyed.

I have been wondering for awhile now what makes the AI so easy to beat, even on unfair.  Now I think I understand.

Since the patch has had time to settle, I'll comment on the "new" siege frigate:

Stronger, but still the same old unit. The last thing you want to send in unescourted.  It's very easy for even a minor enemy strike force to take them down before they do their job, or even if they do finish their job often the cost of recolonizing is less than the amount you paid in siege frigates to begin with.  I do use them more often, but still only as cleanup crews.

One of the biggest reasons I'm using SF now is actually as Vasari, because the Kortul is so much stronger that I just don't have the time to pick the weaker Vulkoras.  I used to use the Vulkoras as an armoured siege frigate, but more and more I find myself spending my capital ship slots on a Skirantra, Kortul, and Evacuator, and I rarely hit 4 caps in multiplayer.

I actually find it a good delaying tactic by the AI. If you do your best to expand as fast as you can, the siege craft tactic will take out your planets, cripple your economy, and ultimately limit what you can do for a long time. If you do your best to protect the planets you acquire, you limit your expansion rate which gives the AI more time to expand itself. I've actually been kind of thinking how I might mimic the AI in that respect in order to limit the AI's expansion.

Anyhow, the AI wont be as smart as you, so its got to get ahead of you. this tactic, from what i've seen, acomplishes that.

The problem with that is that it's cheaper to counter siege frigates than it is to field them.  As I've said before, 10 scouts (or a pair of carriers if you prefer) will absolutely slaughter any siege frigates attempting to bombard a planet.  Even if they do succeed, a siege frigate itself has a price that's similar to a planet upgrade.  Basically, if I kill 3 siege frigates and you killed a basic planet with minimum planet upgrades, it costs you more to replace the dead siege frigates than it costs me to recolonize the planet.  That's before considering that you just weakened your military fleet to do this and will likely be losing battles as a result.

Siege frigate harass works on beginners, but against anyone of moderate experience i't s a complete waste of your resources.

Siege frigates are overpowered, the AI kills my planets before I can defend them.

Siege frigates are underpowered, it's a waste of time to have to kill them.

I wonder what exactly would make them balanced. Making them cost even less would just open up spam like an unpatched game, and they suck too much being nerfed. Although the computer being able to easily wipe planets might make people stop complaining about how easy it is to beat.

Like Darvin was saying, it's incredibly easy to just build a few scouts, and then they're dead.

dude that was SAD.u play sp and irritated by AI's siege frigates?look buddy, from ur words i just know u dun have a permanently efective statics formation for countering AI's siege frigates?if u say they just move 1 cm to a hole in ur def well then u just have tp put ur statics' radius within close range with ur planet.and based on my observation AI's siege formation always come from diagonal sides of ur GW so make sure ur would be statics formation have some fortifications on the flank

huh?what d hell do u mean by dun build many siege frigates?u wanna spend like 15 minutes bombarding a planet with only ur caps?ow u must be the rusher type not an eco?for an eco like me building 1-3 dozens of siege frigates is extremely efective not to mention it will diverse ur opponent's attention during ur n his main fleet combat it out

i don't have problems with the siege frigs in SP.  I usually find a choke point in the random maps and put a second tier fleet there as soon as possible, using a 2nd capitol ship to clear grav wells after my 3rd planet or so.  I also research hangars soon, and put 1 at each planet IMMEDIATELY, using both squads for fighters to counter the 1-5 siege that sometimes get through my blockade.  A starbase with fighters at my blockade helps too.

What I'm saying is it's irritating that the AI even uses them at all, since they're so darn easy to kill.

hummm i'm thinking how about the AI bring a LOT of siege frigates eh?1 dozen of siege brought by AI to feed us seems to little yeah maybe they should bring in like 30+ siege frigates all in once in one jump to bring some challenge?

30 siege frigates?  That's 360 command.  If the AI had that, they wouldn't even have a military fleet.  Forget challenging the human, the AI just shot itself in the foot!

In any case, if you have that kinda cash to burn, get a Marza or Vulkoras.  Those will get you supremely better results than siege frigates.  The SF is clearly a cleanup unit.  It's incredibly fragile and weak despite its high cost, the last thing you can afford to be using on the battlefield.  Use a siege cap if you want in-combat siege results.

Maybe this is just too simple a fix, but I was thinking a upgrade in their ship armor would be one area to improve.... make em tougher to kill...  the other idea was having the AI mix in another craft type as an escort.... maybe having 1 less siege frigate and 2-3 others ships as escorts... it wouldn't be a huge improvement, but I think bewteen better defense, and a small military escort the tactics in place would be more effective and less wasteful.

Also, if the Seige frigates had upgraded armor and escort  they might be able to withstand a barrage long enough to actually finish the job! 

And no I don't think Hull points or Shield strength should be altered... just the ship armor.

The way the AI plays, I'm not sure it should ever build siege frigates at all--it keeps its entire fleet at a single planet while it bombs it out with its capital ships.  It might be better off making more capital ships for bombing purposes.

The way seige frigates are used by human players is as a clean up vessel as Darvin described.  So, if you have even researched and built siege frigates at all, it probably means that you have eviscerated your opponent's fleet and beaten him or at least pushed him back.  They are useful when you either want to take down a planet with upgraded infrastructure (say 6000 or 4500 hit points) quickly or when you want your fleet to push on and don't want to leave your capital ships behind to bomb the enemy's planet.

I've never seen the AI do that--beat an opposing fleet, destroy everything in the gravity well (or not) and then quickly move on to the next enemy planet without bombing the one it's at.  The AI might be tougher if instead of researching and building siege frigates at all it just built an extra capital ship, preferably the siege cap in its place (Marza, Vulkoras, or perhaps Radiance) with the upgrade focus being on the planet bombing abilities.  (Since the Advent seige capital ship sucks until it reaches Level 6, it would need to build something else.)

Perhaps the best fix for the AI's inability to use siege frigates properly is to just not build them at all.

Agreed. As a human I never build them. A cap is far better. so why should the AI?

They're useful to augment a cap. 3-4 of them.  But only if it won't screw up your fleet makeup.  (Never build them without researching 2nd fleet upgrade)

Pffft, people complain about the AI quiting when humans do it 3x as fast.

Its put me off the whole online experience, all games I have been in end because someone indentifies a feeder and the game ends RIGHT there because the entire team just drop out. Joy.

What ever happened to the days of getting the advantage via micro/macro and skills deployed, not just "oh snap someone has a bit of an edge, OUR ENTIRE TEAM is now screwed" :/

agreed.  If your opponents are able to feed, chances are you are or can quickly get into a place where your team can too.

I think most games go on until at least one player on a team has been obviously beaten.  A larger game like a 5v5 is more likely to continue in that type of situation, especially since one player on each team could be getting beaten up.

If someone is feeding either they don't have much of a fleet at all or a smaller fleet than what they might otherwise have (and perhaps even less long-term economic development).  The strength that it creates for one player on one part of the map means less strength for the feeder.  It's possible that he might be vulnerable to an attack over the middle.  Also, feeding isn't always the best strategy, especially if that means that the guy being fed is going to be facing a 2-on-1 from the opposition (as opposed to the feeder's having built a fleet to make it a 2-on-2).  Sometimes it makes more sense for someone in the eco slot to go military and help one of the flanks.

I wouldn't recomend feeding in anything smaller than 3 on 3, and in a position where your allies are keeping their fleets close enough to protect you, while still getting something done.  ie 1 feeder dumping resources into 2 allies or more.  1 focussing on defense of his allies, and the other or multiple others focussing on attacking your enemies.  If you know all the enemy ships, or at least the greater majority, are in one place, link up the defensive fleet with the offensive one and take them on with your higher-end ships and walk right over them.  Assuming they didn't use the same strategy, in which case the battle would be the same as if nobody fed, but with better units.

Hey guys, back on topic. The AI and siege frigates.  

I've followed Darvin's strategy, and the AI now crumbles due to its siege frigates. Simply get 15 or so scouts, and fly them around as needed. The instant your fleet launches towards their planet, they send their siege frigates to you, so I just leave my scouts behind. Their frigates die so fast.

Check out the graph at the end of a game with AI. Look under fleet at siege frigates. The AI's problem is so obvious. The AI is trying as hard as it can to keep its current number of siege frigates at 5. It hardly ever has more than 5, and hardly ever has less, for much longer than you killed them.

Please Devs! Are you reading this?

Did you just quote yourself?...That's one of the first signs of insane genius syndrome...

First signs?  I'm way further down the road than that.....