Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike            lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

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Reply #676 from Sins Forums Top

Well the progen can heal 62 sield points a sec to itself and unlimited amount of ships around it.The dunov casts every 11 sec at 750 per cast.That equals 68 per sec.Its only for one ship.It should be able to heal itself like the progen and skirantra.

Reply #677 from Sins Forums Top

Got it - you're dividing the heal by the cooldown.

Another issue.  Can someone comment on this?

I've played 2 games recently against lrm spammers.  One was a vasari - a "pro-ish" type I see online quite a bit.  I won that.  The other was against a TEC - no winner, we just called it.  I played TEC both games.  At any rate, all both of them did was build nothing but lrm.  The vasari built nothing but assailants all game.  The TEC built nothing but lrm all game.  To counter, I built nothing but heavy cruisers all game.  Econ was even, fleet was even (I checked the stats).  My point?  HC was not effective.  Sure, a single HC will beat a single lrm type unit.  But those things can be built in huge swarms - they eventually get into the hundreds.  You can dedicate yourself to pumping all the HC you want (I even built a TEC starbase to enhance production), but you can't keep up with a dedicated lrm spammer.  And if your HC is ineffective because of the sheer tonnage of lrm, which you can't match in production, then what good is it?

My point is that HC needs a buff.  If it is supposed to be a counter to lrm, it isn't so good because it is too easy to build the lrm in enough numbers to swarm the HC.  HC needs a buff against lrm, or lrm needs a nerd against HC.  Am I right or wrong?

(And please don't say "build scouts," because I didn't want to build scouts.  HC is there for a reason, right?  If it isn't there for a reason, then remove it.  If it is there for a reason, then let me build it in peace without you saying "build scouts" or "build fighters").

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #678 from Sins Forums Top

Actually, i believe LRFs are the only frigate that actually does counter HC, as they are anti heavy armor, so you were doomed from the start there.  Shoulda built fighters, scouts, or anything but LF or HC.  HC beat LRF 1 on 1 because HC have so much shields/hull/armor, and LRF are relatively weak defensively.  HC will counter pretty much anything else, but the LRF are there to keep it in its place as a part of a BALANCED FLEET.  <----------(Hint)

-Exile

Side note, i just noticed something up top about a backwards dunoc icon???  What is that?  I haven't noticed this in-game...

Reply #679 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 677
Got it - you're dividing the heal by the cooldown.

(And please don't say "build scouts," because I didn't want to build scouts.  HC is there for a reason, right?  If it isn't there for a reason, then remove it.  If it is there for a reason, then let me build it in peace without you saying "build scouts" or "build fighters").
End of Agent's quote

Build Flak. Really, late-game flak works the best against LRFs. They're cheap, have high durability, and decent anti-light multipliers. I've used massed flak against LRFs, and it works extremely well. The only problem is against Illums, but that'll be fixed next patch anyways.

Of course, HCs aren't very effective because of their cost. The actual cost to build a unit is fine, but the upgrades are very expensive. I'd almost agree a buff would be nice, but then we'd have Kodiak swarms by the half-hour mark.

Reply #680 from Sins Forums Top

Sigh.  I meant to say DUNOV, sorry.  Again, what do you mean about a backwards icon?

-Exile

Reply #681 from Sins Forums Top

Actually, i believe LRFs are the only frigate that actually does counter HC, as they are anti heavy armor, so you were doomed from the start there.
End of quote

Nope.  LRF does anti-medium.  HC is a counter to LRF if you look at damage types and armor.  But I don't think it's such a counter when you factor in supply cost, time it takes to tech it and build it and churn it out, yadda yadda.  Someone can just swarm you with the inferior unit that is actually countered by the thing you teched and are trying to build.

Build Flak.
End of quote

Ya, I've done that.  Doesn't work so well with vasari, but tec and advent flak is good.  But I didn't want to build flak.  I wanted to build HC.  I have been told by everyone and their mother since the game released that HC is one of the counters to lrm.  If that is true, then why shouldn't I have built that?  You might say "because as you noted, it doesn't work that well."  Thus my question... does it need a buff?

I'd almost agree a buff would be nice, but then we'd have Kodiak swarms by the half-hour mark.
End of quote

Well we already have swarms of lrf before that.

I don't want it OP, I just want it to do its job.  If it is supposed to be a counter to lrf, then make it a counter to lrf.  That's all I want.  It doesn't stand up so well to mass disciples either.

 

Reply #682 from Sins Forums Top

LRF Mean "long range", not "all range". Why LRF are supereffective vs near everything at all distances?

Reply #683 from Sins Forums Top

Agent- HC spam never works against LRF spam because, like you said, you cant produce them fast enough to keep up. However that does not mean they aren't a counter to LRF. First off, your opponent got a head start on you with units due to LRFs lower tier, that already puts you behind on production. So going flat out HC isnt going to work unless you have a superior economy. So instead you need to invest in a few other ship types and upgrades to make them tougher. AS TEC you should definitely invest in Hoshis to go along with your HC (or even a flak swarm), mainly because HC are expensive to replace, and Hoshis will really help keep them alive. Secondly you should invest in armor and health upgrades for them, again to help keep them alive. Unupgraded, unsupported HC are not difficult to defeat, upgraded, supported HC are something else entirely. Seriously though HC thrive in a balanced fleet, use hoshis, fighters and flak with them and you should be able to topple any only lrm fleet.

Exile- Someone pointed out to me that the Dunovs is the only Icon facing the opposite direction in the build menu. Hence, backwards icon. I don;t really consider it much of a bug, but it bothers some people, so I put it up there. MAybe they'll fix it, maybe they wont, but personally I could care less either way.

Reply #684 from Sins Forums Top

IMO there should exist something like "chain of counters":

 

Flak > Fighters, Bombers, Scouts

Flak = LRF at close distance (cost-to-cost equal vs each other)

LF = Capital (cost-to-cost equal vs each other)

LF > LRF at close distance, Scout, Flak

HC > Capitals, LRF, Flak, Scout

LRF at long disance > LF, Flak, Capital

Scout > LRF

Capital > LRF at close distance, Flak, Scout

Fighter > Bomber, LRF, Scout

Bomber > Capital, HC, LF, LRF

 

Example:

Player 1 build LRF

Player 2 build LF and manage them to engage P1 LRF at close range

Player 1 build HC and put them between LRF and enemy LF

Player 2 build bombers and engage enemy HC, Then LRF

Player 1 build fighters to kill enemy bombers

Player 2 build Flak to kill fighters to save bombers

Player 1 Increase number of LRF to kill Flak before they kill fighters

etc. etc. Purpose is simple - to stop one-two units spam able to counter everything.

 

BTW. Capitals natural counters will be limited to bombers and HC. LF are able to engage capitals, but with limited effectiveness (they can buy some time but teching to bombers/HC is far better option then massing LF). LRF are able to hit Capitals from safe range only (you need meatshield like massed LF).

 

 

 

^That is example showing how counters system should IMO work.

Reply #685 from Sins Forums Top

What if bombers got buffed against lrf?Fleets would forced to be more diverse.Flak for fighters and fighters for bombers.Would make pure lrf spamming much more difficult.

Reply #686 from Sins Forums Top

Fighters, Bombers and LRF are already extremely viable

Instead of buffing bombers vs LRF, underused units like HC and LF should be improved.

And caps are too vulnerable to LRF. IMO effective counters to caps should be limited to Bombers, HCs and other caps. LRF should die to caps (especially to battlecruisers).

Reply #687 from Sins Forums Top

Well, blair said that the Illum bug will be fixed which will clear up some of this.  In the mean time, I have suggested researchables that improve the combat ability of capitals to aid them later game.  If you made a couple of them apply to HC's, then that would help them kill LRF.

Seeing as how that is a pipe dream, Perhaps you should buff AVH or Composite damage types against light targets.  HC's shouldn't be able to be spammed, they are a front line meat shield.  LRF's are the primary damage dealers, but 1 to 1 (in FC/cost) I think that HC's should win.  So basically 3 LRF>1 HC>2 LRF.  That might help and might help prevent abuse of both LRF and HC's.  I don't know..  Just spitting out ideas.

@Arthanis: While I did once agree with you that their damage should fall off at short range, I eventually stopped arguing.  Whether you want to believe it or not, LRF are the primary damage dealers of any fleet.  Here are the roles assigned to each ship:

Scouts: counter LRF

LF: counter support and carriers, early game rush assistance

LRF: primary damage dealing

Flak: counter SC

Carriers: spawn SC

Fighters: counter bombers and LRF

Bombers: counter heavy targets

Support: support the fleet

HC: secondary damage dealing, primary cannon fodder

Capitals: early game primary damage dealing, late game support

 

Reply #688 from Sins Forums Top

I definitely prefer paper-rock-scissor system then LRF as "main damage dealers" (which mean counterng near everything) and rest of units working as enigmatic "support" (which mean "not really useful but you can build some to surprise enemy").

I'm ok with LRF being main damage dealers, but there is one question: where are LRF disadvanatges?

In many RTS games artillery units can work as "main damage dealers" too, but they have significant disadvanatges:

- very slow speed

- high tier

- difficulty in massing

- inaccurancy

- low armor

etc. etc.

LRF don't have ANY natural disadvanatge of Artillery units.

It is source of many balance problems:

- Caps are underused

- LRF don't have natural hardcounter

- HC are underused

- LF are underused

- Massing LRF +AntiSC support > balanced fleed using multiple ship types (in many situations)

 

In simple words: Add one SC slot to each LRF and you don't need to build anything except LRF...

Reply #689 from Sins Forums Top

Volt- Let me explain something about the Health and shield upgrades. They're based on a percentage, which means that Units with Higher base health and higher base shields (like capital ships and heavy cruisers) benefit more than units with lower hp/shields. A 30% increase means that a ship with a base health of say 1050 gains 315 hp, where as something with say 560hp only gains 168. This is where your researchable upgrades are. A cap ship with a base of 3000hp would gain 900 extra hp. You said earlier that research in weapons cancels out the health, I disagree because, as its also based on a percentage, it increases 30% of a much much smaller number (ie. 22x1.3=28.6 gain of 6.6 dmg). With that there are also more techs devoted to increasing the life of your units than increasing their firepower- Upgrades in shields, Armor and health stack on all of your units, while weapons upgrades like beams, lasers and plasma do not stack, they only give an effective 30% increase to some of your units (all if you research all of them). So in summary, Health/Shields benefit larger vessels more and stack, higher base armored vessels benefit more from armor upgrades and weapons upgrades give a flat maximum 30% damage increase thats based on much smaller numbers.

Arthanis- AS much as you may like, fully altering the way lrfs do damage is not in the cards at this point. I understand your poitn, and your argument makes sense, but like I've said before, small changes are the way to go. Instituting your suggestion would open up a whole new can of worms when it comes to balance issues, and would no doubt put us further away from a good balance than before. LRF not having "disadvantages of artillery units" is not what is causing balance issues because it is not their range that is the issue. In this game Lrfs are not traditional RTS artillery units. Lrfs range only becomes important when dealing with static defenses, otherwise their increased range is somewhat meaningless. The real issues with lrfs lie in their cost, health and/or damage, not in their range. 

Reply #690 from Sins Forums Top

Whats wrong with alot of HC's? IMHO, those should be the bulk of any fleet. Even more so for end game fleets. Its a high tech ships. Besides Bombers would keep HC spammer at bay. If you increase by 10-20% the damage multiplier HC does to everything less than Heavy Armor. Or reduce like Ive said before LRF Damage mulitplier against heavy/Capital Armor. But not Composite. That way your LRF can still do decent damage vs structures but allow both Caps and HC to bear the brunt of a horde of LRF much better than they do now.

Anyone tried to change the multipliers yet? They make a difference. And its simple change.

Reply #691 from Sins Forums Top

First off, your opponent got a head start on you with units due to LRFs lower tier....So instead you need to invest in a few other ship types and upgrades to make them tougher. AS TEC you should definitely invest in Hoshis to go along with your HC (or even a flak swarm)....Secondly you should invest in armor and health upgrades for them, again to help keep them alive. Unupgraded, unsupported HC are not difficult to defeat, upgraded, supported HC are something else entirely.
End of quote

Too many labs, too much research, too much money, and too much time, all to defeat the simple strat of "mash lrf button over and over again."  Nonviable.

Fortunately, I'm not complaining that lrf doesn't have a counter (besides illums).  I could go scouts, I could go flak as tec or advent, I could go fighters, I could build my own lrm.  I have choices, and they work (except against illums).  I just wonder what heavy cruisers are sitting there for.

Instead of buffing bombers vs LRF, underused units like HC and LF should be improved.
End of quote

Arthanis, actually lf is not underutilized at all (except for the skirmisher).  Actually, if anything, I think some lf (like disciples) are too effective.  I see "pros" building massive disciple-only fleets and rolling people.  Funny thing is, if you go HC against such a fleet, you get annihilated.

Reply #692 from Sins Forums Top

That way your LRF can still do decent damage vs structures but allow both Caps and HC to bear the brunt of a horde of LRF much better than they do now.
End of quote

 

Yes, both HC and caps should roll over LRFs

Reply #693 from Sins Forums Top

Composite is a damage type, not an armor type.  You would have to change the anti-medium info to be lower against capital and very heavy armor, but then you reduced the effectiveness against buildings...  I say buff HC's against LRF by 10-15% and nerf LRF against capitals 5-10%.

 

And Deceiver, I thought I said a while back that I agreed with you and that, but not entirely...   Its just that:

LRF: 20+25%=25

Capital: 3000+25%=3750

In both cases, it takes 150 seconds to kill the capital (I just made up numbers since they are irrelevant).  However, because of armor/shield/hull increases, it is on the side of defense.  I wasn't saying that you completely neutralized it, just part of it, or potentially (though unlikely) all of it if you only upgraded one thing and your opponent had upgraded their weapon all the way to 30%.  The size of the ship doesn't matter if they match you with offensive upgrades until you start buying them in different categories, then you are at an advantage.

I was just saying that I would like to see dedicated things that increase the armor/shields/hull of capitals to give them an extra boost to keep them ahead of LRF a little more effectively...  Now, buffing heavies and slightly nerfing LRF might be enough, I don't know...  Bombers ought to keep heavies in check, so I doubt that you would make them OP.  The other option of course is a straight buff to stats (which the Enforcer needs anyways).

Reply #694 from Sins Forums Top

Just tested with a friend.  He took advent, I took tec.  We built the same eco.  After that, he just started churning out disiples for about 30 minutes straight, and i just churned as many HC as I could.  I also built what everybody recommends - hoshikos (roughly 25% of the numbers in my fleet), plus I upgraded hull and armor, and lastly attack as many times as I could before the 30 minute period was up.  Then we clashed with what we had.

The mass disciples won.  I say there is currently little, if any reason to tech up to late tier units.

Reply #695 from Sins Forums Top

Counters system don't work... and now we have another evidence.

Reply #696 from Sins Forums Top

I would like Replay first before I call foul.

Reply #697 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting -Ue_Carbon, reply 696
I would like Replay first before I call foul.
End of -Ue_Carbon's quote

No replay needed - try it yourself and report your results.

Reply #698 from Sins Forums Top

You could build 11 disciples for every 4 Kodiaks so that leaves 90 discples vs 32 Kodiaks at the end of 30 minutes.  Even without the replay, I'm going to guess the hoshikos were rendered useless since 58 disciples were unmolested and free to kill support cruisers then your Kodiaks died as they were just pathetically out-numbered.

Reply #699 from Sins Forums Top

If you count supply 90 disiples is 360 supply while 32 Kodiacs is only 160 supply. You HC where greatly outnumbered.

Reply #700 from Sins Forums Top

Co is right.  You were outnumbered 3 to 1 and the Disciples likely had more total health than the Kodiaks at that point.  There is one problem.  Another as said is that the Hoshis were completely unprotected.  LF are great counters to support ships, but in reality, few people actually use very many LF as they are the first things to die in a battle due to LRF.

So really, what you demonstrated is you being outnumbered and the weakness of Hoshis to LF.

 

That said, I don't think this should be the result.  HC's should not be beaten by a tier 0 frigate.  So perhaps a general stat buff to them and a buff against light armor?  Neither would be big, just enough to get the job done (though of course the Enforcer buff would be larger).