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RS-fx

Join Date 12/2008

+13

Modeling : Shaping, UV mapping, tangent, gimp and null points questions.

After hours of work through a loooot of tutorials, starting from scratch, and thanks to this and this, i have the pride of being the creator of the ugliest ship in the game

I use Xsi softimage mod tool and gimp and I created this model to review the whole process before modeling and texturing more ambitious ships.

The tutorials i used are good but quite short so i have a few questions for those who have experience in modeling and kind enough to answer me.

First : shaping. I made some progress in modeling but there is still something i don't know how to do. From a square or a rectangular shape, how do you make a perfectly rounded shape. From a cube for example : starting with the four sides, i want two flat surfaces joined and a rounded surface with the two others. How do you do that ?

And, by the way, what are hard edges ? Are they useful for SOASE modeling ?

Second : UV mapping. I modeled a more intricate ship than my first shot : (pics here and here) but i have a hard time to map it.

From what i have learnt, to make a UV map, you start by creating clusters to subdivide your ships in smaller, easier to map parts. For my ships, the engines and the wings. Then you use a planar projection and start ripping your model apart in the texture editor of softimage, using subprojections when it is needed.

I find it difficult with a lot of overlapping and so on. Do you have some tips and tricks i could use ? I also read about something about using islands or disconnecting polygons through seams. I even read about softwares like UV mapper and roadkill (more info here and here) and i was wondering if it could be useful or if any of you was using these tools (even if i don't see how import the UV map in softimage once the mapping is done).

An other question : when i mapped my ship for texturing, i stamp the UV and then close all to use Gimp, making data maps and so on. When i created the phong and add textures, i had a bad suprise : my -cl.dds file didn't use the UV map i made : the UV map was gone although i stamped it and asked for using it as base material. I couldn't fix this : i had to make the UV map again. so, do you know how to import or link an UV map for a texture or how to save your UV map once the mapping is done ?

Ok, UV mapping, check. Now, tangent. What is this ? I made a tangent map but i didn't understand what it does.

Now, about Gimp. When i try to open a .dds file made by Ironclad, i get this (here, it is the TEC carrier cap). is it normal ?

Finally, about the null points. I made a mistake and my test ship moves sideways (i know how to fix this, rotate the ship in xsi and so on).

But i make a null point oriented in the front of the ship for my weapon and my ships fire sideways ! (see first pic : my ship are shooting without aligning my weapon point with their target. They should be facing the target, not attacking its by their side, shouldn't they ?

And, finally, how to adjust the size of the engine exhaust ?

Thank you for reading until there !

modding

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Major Stress

Join Date 05/2006

+161

Yup the ship is so ugly its "file not found". Along with the rest of your pics Though i am glad my tutorial helped you.

The devs UV mapped the ships a different way than i am used to. Most modeling programs can create a UV map of the entire model on a single texture. I have yet to figure out how to do it in the way i need it done, and ive been modeling for 10 years.

I am used to subdivviding sections the ship into multiple layers (groups in 3dsmax), then taking a "snapshot" of the wireframe section, and using that as the foundation for the texture, then in photoshop i draw the texture over the wireframe, and uv map the finished texture to that models section. Most of the time i get no overlaps in XSI, but there have been some annoying exceptions. You just have to keep experimenting with different methods.

I wouldnt use a square to begin with i would make a new section out of a cylinder, or sphere depending on what it is on your model reference (if you are using 3 view pictures as a guide to your mesh). If you are doing it from scratch then just pick what you think is best to use.

Tangents are similar to "Smoothing Groups" in 3dsmax. XSI's method for creating them is a little different. It is basically the same as UV mapping a model, but with a separate set of UV's (usually duplicated from the originals). Just follow the Sins mod documentation in the forge tools for that subject. They pretty much got that covered.

Your null point is ether oriented wrong on the model, or you have it flagged as firing left, or right in your ships entity file. In your ships entity you should see these lines for each weapon type. It is pretty self explanatory.

    DamagePerBank:FRONT 72.000000
    DamagePerBank:BACK 0.000000
    DamagePerBank:LEFT 0.000000
    DamagePerBank:RIGHT 0.000000

Also you can specify in the ships entity which direction the ship faces when it engages. Before the ship would turn the direction to face which side had the most dps. Heres an example.

firingAlignmentType "Default"
TargetCountPerBank:FRONT 1
TargetCountPerBank:BACK 0
TargetCountPerBank:LEFT 0
TargetCountPerBank:RIGHT 0
canOnlyTargetStructures FALSE
hasWeaponLevels FALSE

Engine exhaust is controlled both in the ships entity file, and its respective particle file. Depending on the ship. Most frigates, cruisers, and cap ships its purely inside the particle file. Fighters you can control trail length within the entity file.

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thank a lot for your help ! I don"t know how to use layers like you do in Xsi so i divided my ship in lot of clusters to make it easier to UV map. But editing my uv map is annoying, my computer freezes for 20 seconds each time i want to select an other object.

I fixed my null points and it is now ok, my ship is shooting the way i want it :

edit : (I give up trying to host an image in decent quality after fighting 10 minutes with gimp and free image hosting.net.)

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You can also try using a 3D polypaint tool such as Z-Brushfor making textures. I used to do it the way Stress is doing it, by taking snapshots and then painting textures in Photoshop, but with tools like Z-Brush you can achieve things simply not possible with Photoshop, at least not if you don't want to spend days on tedious ajdustments. An added bonus is that you avoid any kind of texture stretching or seams since polypainting compensates for those.

The drawback is that's a whole another tool to learn how to use properly.

If you experience slowdowns while doing UV-mapping in XSI, try freezing your model. Keep in mind you then lose the ability to undo the changes you've made thus far so only freeze when you're happy with what you've got and don't want to backtrack.

Also, when UV mapping, I use a little method which saves time and doesn't require splitting the mesh into groups - I simply use the hide tool to hide the polygons I've UV mapped. That way I can keep a definitive visual track of the progress I've made - the polygons you see are the polygons you need to UV map. I also sort (by hand, nothing fancy) the various UV mappings to three groups, high, medium and low space priority, according to how much texture space I want a particular section to have (for example sections with lots of detail will go to the high priority group while sections which are hard to see on the model go to the low). This makes it a lot easier to properly arrange your UV mappings later on.

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Thanks for the tip but Z-brush is sadly worth 595 USD (and sotftimage 7.5 with the unwrapping fonction is over 3000 USD worth arghh) so i think iwll continue to use the hide and unhide tool with my clusters as i actually do it with my models. I don't feel comfortable with your methods, you and Major Stress, as i don't see how i could make just one texture file-cl.dds from several snapshots.

About clusters, i know that i can make textures for my clusters but i would have to make three new textures files for each cluster, wouldn't i ? so, as the number of textures in sins is limited, i think i will try to avoid it.

Actually, i have two issues :

-my computer freezes for one minute every time i try to select an object in the texture editor (if i select it into the 3D view, it is ok, no freezing), even as my model is frozen (with freeze and freeze M). It is no big deal when i unwrapp because i selct my polygons and my clusters in the 3D view but when i want to modify my UV map within the texture editor, it is a nightmare. I don't know why, it is the only time where my computer freezes with Xsi, it is weird.

-In my capital ship models, i have a set of similar objects (engines, turrets) : is there a way to UV map one of these and then copy the subprojections of this object to the other ones ?

Thanks !

edit : problem 1 solved thanks to that : http://www.driverheaven.net/modtool.php

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If your models are composed of several separate geometries, you want to merge them together before UV mapping so that in the end you have a single geometry object - I don't think you can effectively export a mesh file from a set of different objects and still have it all covered by just three textures.

Otherwise, yes, you can have duplicates of already UV mapped objects, as long as the geometry is the same. Simply Ctrl-A in the texture editor of the first object, then create a subprojection for the second, third, etc. and paste the subprojections in the texture editor. If you UV map the first object and then duplicate it, you get the same deal automatically.

If your objects are symetrical, you can actually delete one half of the object, UV map it, and then symmetrize it - the UV subprojections copy over to the new half exactly! That way you can save a lot of texture space and save yourself the trouble of having to UV map the other half of the object.

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Major Stress

Join Date 05/2006

+161

The problem with that is sometimes you will have a nasty texture seem right down the middle of the model where you cut it in half (see the SoA 2 mod's defiant for an example. I didnt build it). No matter if the points are welded or not. I basically dont know XSI that well. Plus like the OP i have issues selecting, grouping. Selecting a single triangle in XSI is like having dental surgury done with a flame thrower. It never selects just one. My user displays have a nasty habit of disappearing as well, and they stay that way despite saving, exiting XSI, and reloading the model. No matter how much i freeze the model. I suffer performance issues. My laptop isnt the best, but it "should" run XSI smoothly, because i am way above the minimum req's.

However manshooter is right it is better to work on the object as a whole. If you must divide it up make sure you merge it back together when finished. Sins does support multi object models, but it doesnt like them.

I use 3dsmax to model, texture, and UV-map. Ive been a max user. Always will be a max user. Sins doesnt care what program makes the model as long as it is finished off in XSI (tangents, hardpoints).

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You can also try using a 3D polypaint tool such as Z-Brushfor making textures.

Thanks for the tip but Z-brush is sadly worth 595 USD

You can always use Blacksmith3D paint 3.2 who is free... it allow to paint directly on the 3D model... don't need to care about segmenting, UV or seam during the texturing... http://www.blacksmith3d.com/blacksmith3D-3d-paint-software.php ...

I am using Wings3D ( only 7mb and free ) for modeling, segmenting and UV... if you are curious about segmenting and UV, take a look at http://sri-corp.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2436.msg15592#msg15592 ... the model is from Kobalt ( B5 mod ) and i have use it for teach him about segmenting/UV ...

It is possible to paint in Wing3D too... but it is more complex... and you need the free nvidia melody tool for create your normal map...

- basic ( 800 triangles ) fighter model with vertex paint : http://www.love-from-russia.be/305.jpg

- high poly ( 80k triangles ) fighter... simply use two sabim subdivision who smooth the model and the vertex painting... http://www.love-from-russia.be/306.jpg

- use melody with low poly and high poly for the normal map... you will have a 3 channel normal map but it seem that sins use only two of the 3 channel...

- use wings3D for back UV and texture from the vertex painting of the high poly model

- opengl render result is not so bad : http://www.love-from-russia.be/307.jpg ... main advantage is that i don't need to paint for have the complex gradient texture on the high poly model and i can use these texture on the low poly one ( UV are compatible )...

And, by the way, what are hard edges ? Are they useful for SOASE modeling ?

Hard edges simply mark place who don't need to be smooth... not sure that sins use them but it can be interesting at the modeling level... let say that you build a ship with very low poly count... before smooth it, select the hard edges... smooth make everything more soft ( and increase the poly count ) but hard edges will not be smoothed... interesting for wings edges by example...

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Yeah, that's why I use this technique mostly with ZBrush - people often complain how you can't do texture overlapping to save space with ZBrush since it requires each UV subprojection to occupy unique space - this is the way to do just that. If you're having problems with seams showing, you can pretty easily remove most of them by smoothing the tangents in Ultimapper. Just increase the value until you see the various colors blend in without sharp edges, it should do away with most UV mapping seams. It can't do much about texture seams because those are pixel-related, not lightning related. And of course, when painting textures along the central seam you have to take into consideration that the human eye is pretty good at spotting repetition, I usually plant some symetrical detail there plus generic color texture in general to throw this off.

Plus like the OP i have issues selecting, grouping. Selecting a single triangle in XSI is like having dental surgury done with a flame thrower. It never selects just one.

Are you using the raycast selection tool or just the normal polygon selection? I've never had any problems in selecting what I want, XSI is pretty expansive when it comes to selection options. For polygons, I usually use the raycast selection tool (deafult U), you can also combine it with the loop selection which is very useful in some circumstances.

Basically, if you learn to use the keyboard shortcuts + mouse, you just fly in XSI. I don't know how Max handles this, last time I used it, it was I think 5...

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Thank a lot for the tip about mapping similar objects, manshooter, i made some tests in XSI and it works well.

I can't use 3dmax as it is very expensive so i will stay with softimage as i am becoming to handle it. I will give also give a try to blacksmith 3D programm for my next capital ship (i just spent five hours to uv map my battleship and it was a bit boring).

About selecting in XSI, it is quite good, especially the raycast selection. The only thing that puzzles me is that for some of my mesh's clusters, raycast works fine and for others, it doesn't select the first polygon in view but the one behind it. Very annoying and i didn't have any clue about how to fix this. If someone knows about this issue, i am very interested !

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Major Stress

Join Date 05/2006

+161

Cant help you there. Like i said i probably have more issues with XSI than you do lol. I guess it all depends on what program you learned to model with first. Which in my case it was 3dsmax. Then Lightwave. The max UI is the best IMO. You dont need to memorize hotkeys. And modeling is smooth once you figure out the UI. Been using it for 10 years (using 2010 now). I wont use anything else to model. Not much changed over the years as far as UI from max version 5. The only things i use XSI for are making tangents. Which is just another form of UV mapping, and adding hardpoints.

I used all the poly selection options in XSI, and the results are all the same. I wind up selecting ether a whole swath of the model, or nothing at all. This of course while my display stays visable. XSI obviously doesnt like intel graphic chipsets. I usually dont have problems doing hardpoints, tangents, and exporting. Its the modeling itself when i run into problems. I must be an inept when it comes to XSI

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i am quite happy with modeling in XSI. It is the texturing that bothers me. I just tried a half-baked version of my color map that i am texturing and it is horribly pixelized and i am using a 1024x2048 pixels texture as the devs do for capitals ships...). I have the feeling my pixels are bigger than the dev's ! It is frustrating to encounter this problem after doing this godamn uv map.

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Major Stress

Join Date 05/2006

+161

Try using a 3rd party program like deep exploration to view the model after you apply the texture. I belive you have the max render resolution set too low in XSI (think it defaults at 256). Which is why it would look pixelated. Its not your texture if that is the case. Check your options.

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Quoting RS-fx,

reply 11

i am using a 1024x2048 pixels texture as the devs do for capitals ships...

Better use a square texture, like 2048*2048 ... reason is simple... mipmap on square texture increase the size by 30%, mipmap on non square texture incresed the size by 400%...

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@Major stress : i would chek my options, thanks for the tip, i really hope it is the problem !

@Thoumsin : 2048*2048 pixels is going to be quite big... How would it change the game speed if i use 3 2048*2048 pixels textures for each of my 5 new capital ships ? (i am texturing just my fist cap now so i don't want to finish texturing my fifth capital ship to see that it makes the game to slow to make the game playable )

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The Last Stand mod uses several ships with a 2048x2048 texture and I haven't noticed any slowdowns. However, there is a texture memory limit, so use big textures sparingly.

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Major Stress

Join Date 05/2006

+161

The hardcode is not a resolution limit, but a number of textures limit. Though i still would not use anything larger than a 2048 res texture for a cap ship. Another thing you have to consider with this limit is the -da, and -nm texture. This is why most of the vanilla sins models only use one -cl texture, and dont multi-texture like some other games do.

When i import a 3rd party model i combine all of its textures into one single sheet. Making sure its the correct resolution. Sins HATES odd sized textures. Then i re-UVmap the model to the new -cl texture. Then make its repective -da, and -nm texture. No model in sins should have more than 3 textures. Its -cl, -da, and -nm.

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Yeah, i knew about the nomber of textures limit but i was worried about lagging as the bigger the texture, the harder it is for the game engine, isn't it ? But if ManShooter says it is ok with 2048x2048 pixels size, i am happy because for me, 1024x2048 is quite short for a capital ship.

By the way, i fixed my raycast issue : some of my polygon's normals were inverted and that's why my textures were displaying badly in-game.

Thank a lot for your help, ManShooter, Thoumsin and Major Stress, with all i learnt there, it will save me a loooot of time

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Quoting RS-fx,

reply 17

Not really a problem in sins... you can build only a few capital ship, a good amount of frigate/cruiser and a lot of fighter/bomber... it is why the "normal" size of texture is 2048*2048 for capital, 1024*1024 for cruiser/frigate, 512*512 for fighter/bomber...

What really increase the size of the texture is the mipmapping... but it is not bad :

Rendering speed increases since the number of texture pixels ("texels") being processed can be much lower than with simple textures. Artifacts are reduced since the mipmap images are effectively already anti-aliased, taking some of the burden off the real-time renderer. Scaling down and up is made more efficient with mipmaps as well.

In fact, lagging will appear if you create .dds texture without mipmap !!! The only slowdown will be at the start, when all texture are cached in the main memory... but after, the game engine will use the right mipmap part of the texture in function of the onscreen zoom... you see a battle from far, little mipmap part will be used for all ship... you zoom one ship and the full texture of this ship only will be used...

So, simply use the so called "normal" size for texture... enable the mipmap when you save to .dds, it will increase the size a little ( 30% ) but it will speed up the engine, specially in huge battle...

It is one of the few case where bigger file mean more speed... a other case are the tangent... they can be calculated in XSI ( increase a little the size of the .mesh ) or by the game engine... the .mesh will be more small in the second case but will ask more work from the game engine, who mean more chance to have lag... more, quality of the tangent created with the game engine are more bad that these created in XSI...

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Major Stress

Join Date 05/2006

+161

You dont want Sins to calculate tangents for you (setting "has valid tangents" to false in the mesh file). Not only will it eat up more resources, but its almost like an "autosmooth" feature in a modeling program. Which can have unpredictable results on your mesh. For round, and totally smooth objects that you dont want to see any seems or edges it works great example a sphere, or a star wars mon calaimari ship. Ships that need sharp, and visible corners/edges it messes them up badly.

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Agree about the "eat up more resources" but i have not experience the smooth everything...

By the way, in my modeling program, "autosmooth" mark the hard edges and "smooth" smooth everything who is not hard edges...

Main problem with tangent set on false is how light interact with surface... shadow and dark zone are calculate at the poly level and not more at the pixel level...

Have know recently the problem with a model for Tesla... seem that sins don't care of the edges marked to be hard edges in the original object file... but soon, i will try different type of normals and see the result in game ( without tangent )... Tobi from the B5 mod have already great result with weighted tangents... i wish try a model with angle weighted vertex normals... maybe it will correct the numerous engine strange render when it have not tangent...

by the way, having tangent set on true but no tangent calculated in XSI is the main reason why so much model look very dark in game...

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Quoting Thoumsin,

reply 20

by the way, having tangent set on true but no tangent calculated in XSI is the main reason why so much model look very dark in game...

Hi Thoumsin,

Can you please elaborate on that? I've had this issue since I've started and have yet to find a solution. I do have copies of the UV map (Texture_Projection_1) selected as the tangent map as per the Modding Supplement but I still end up with dark ships in game. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Also, what is the correct thing to do with the light source? I was told my models may be turning out dark because of the light and that I should delete the object before exporting. I have done that but it didn't seem to have any effect.

I would love a solution to the 'dark model' issue.

-dolynick

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Hello everyone.

I wanted to have some information on the ship modeling.

What software?

How to proceed?

Or I can find the tutorial video? If possible in French?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

+629

Quoting Amandegoura,

reply 22

Hello everyone.

I wanted to have some information on the ship modeling.

What software?

How to proceed?

Or I can find the tutorial video? If possible in French?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

Probably not in French, but try the links here.

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Thank you for your reply.
But with all the paper that there it does not help me much infact there are no Tuto from A to Z, this is what I find lacking.

If other people know what to do, help is welcome.

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Yes, all the modeling tutorials assume you can model, and are just to get the model into Sins.

Youtube has loads of modeling videos for whatever program you are using.

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