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Novalith Physics

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Novalith Physics

from Sins Forums

I am currently in a debate of what the technical issues for a novalith cannon, including the size of the round itself, how the physics of the round works (how it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere), and how it remains nearly undetectable with the speed that is it traveling.

Can someone please explain these?

I can give a full rundown of my theories, and the comebacks that I have endured...

My Theorized Size:

Novalith Cannon, a railgun type cannon, 2 KM in length, 600 M width, it is considered a superweapon due to the payload: a 250 MT Nuclear Warhead, this weapon can take out a large asteroid or average sized moon out with one shot, it would take out a planet in 2-5 shots, after the planet is hit it is covered in radiation making it uninhabitable for some time

The cannon fires the warhead at near light-speed, and is hard to detect, though if it is detected enough firepower may take out the warhead, but that will force it to detonate prematurely, the warhead is armed as soon as it is halfway to its target, making any premature destination inside USCC territory very rare, but still possible.

The cool-down time after firing is around 6 minutes, it takes another 5 to load and refire, a total of 11 minutes.

Seeing that this is under the classification of 'superweapon' I wish to limit it at one. (If I'm allowed 2 or 3, I won't argue)
End of quote

The First Arguement+My list:

Well, greg. It looks doable, though I admit that I am no admin. However, I have four things to bring up: Number one: Why use Nuclear warheads? 250 MT isn't all that much considering that most Antimatter torpedoes have a greater yield. Wheller has Gigaton yield weapons. Number 2: How large a fraction of the speed of light are we looking at here? Most factions use PD arrays to defend against incursions by way of fighters. And most particle beams can do .95c or better. A sufficiently fast computer will make a targeting calculation and destroy your shot. I've done it with wheller's MACs. Number 3: This would not be a viable weapon against planets. It's simple (elementary, really) physics. Once the shell impacts the atmosphere, the warhead will shred itself to pieces. It's like firing a .50 cal into water. The supersonic bullet cannot handle the forces of the fluid. At significant sublight velocities, this effect will only be compounded. Thus the 250 MT weapon will be so much radioactive dust. Point 4: How do you intend to make this difficult to detect? In order to do something like this, you'd have to have a cloaking field, and while that would protect your vessel from detection before firing, you'd still be susceptable to tachyonics, and other methods of detection, not to mention the fact that you'd have to take the cloak offline prior to firing. Oh, and the radiation from the shells would also tip people off. Just saying.
End of quote

1. Nuclear Vs Anti Matter, I cannot produce the amount of antimatter that everyone else can (yet, remember, my tech tree is the lowest as of now)
2. 99% the speed of light, if it went lightspeed, the thing would disintegrate
3. 250 MT may not see to do a lot, but if I were to have the Gigaton Nukes, I wouldn't be able to produce them (well not as many as the megatons), I may be able to do catastrophic damage with the gigaton system, but the megaton system is easier to produce numbers with (remember I work with numbers not bigger weapons)
4. Don't you think that before producing a weapon that is meant to hit planets, that i wouldn't have thought of atmosphere? The round travels 99% the speed of light, the atmosphere wouldn't really be and issue, it may burn up some, but the shells were made with hard enough materials, aerodynamic, and it wouldn't be like a 50 Cal hitting water, but just be one getting shot in air, there's some resistance but the speed vs resistance wouldn't affect it too much
5. I have never known of a Geiger counter that can detect radiation coming in at 99% the speed of light, plus there are other amounts of radiation in space due to stars, ships, and the like.
6. It is hard to detect, the shell is smaller than a Swallow Unmanned Interceptor, the likelihood that you have your motion trackers, or any type of radar, pointed at the round, is 990,000 to 1, if you do see it, it would be a really fast moving blip, about the size of a small asteroid or meteor, there were be radiation coming off asteroids and meteors too btw.
7. It isn't a ship its an aimable railgun, and yes its cloaked unless fired.
End of quote

And the final straw (This person won't give up)

Greg. It doesn't matter. It would still disintegrate on impact with the atmosphere. Watch Mythbusters. Aerodynamics have no effect. The bullet was aerodynamic. It's the speed. Going fom .99c in vacuum, where there are essentially no molecules, to .99c in atmo, where there are more will shred the thing to pieces. NO questions asked. Why do you think ships don't exceed high mach in atmo?

Second: Geiger counters Do detect radiation coming in at the speed of light, since gamma rays ARE EM, and DO travel at the speed of light. Besides, the sensors we are talking about here are much more sophisticated than a mere Gieger counters.

Third: The power requirements to lob a projectile at .99c are astronomical. Massively astronomical, unless you are running ZPMs, or something very much like, you won't have the power to do anything of the sort. if you can't even produce antimatter in quantity for power generation, then you won't have access to the technology required to lob a projectile that fast.

Fourth: If you are using a straight nuke it's gonna be heavy, and in order to release enough radiation to make a planet uninhabitable, it would have to be: the amount of radiation released would be astronomical, and Certainly detectable to normal sensors once fired, if not under cloak.
End of quote

Please Help!!!

 

49,726 views 58 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

Note, the round DOES have the phase cone around it when it travels.

Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top

Problem with using a normal projectile, firing at .99 C the speed of light, according to newtons laws, all the energy that goes into the proctile, goes into the cannon itself.

AKA- that is one large recoil!
End of quote

what is a normal projectile? do you mean like a railgun slug? because there is no recoil from magnetic weapons. and in order to fire what is essentially a massive bullet in space, you would need a MASSIVE and extremely effecient propellant... and why do all that when you can just use a missile or railgun or combination of both?

An object 1000m across hitting a planet at 50,000Km/h would create a crater 50+Km across and cause damage to 1000Km, and would most likely be an ELE.

An object 1000m across hitting a planet at 0.99c would instantly vapourize the planet.
End of quote

All missile based Nukes are never detonated on impact with the ground. It reduces the effectiveness of the blast. so, while you are right that a projectile hitting a planet at .99c would vaporise the planet, nothing says the Novalith blast actually hits the planet. it could simply be a large, very fast nuke. i mean, they dont want to completely DESTROY the planet, just deny it to the enemy. as such, a slug wouldnt be necessary.

 

so, this is what we know:

the weapon is fired from a 'cannon' of some sort

it travels through phase space

it 'impacts' the planet (or at least enters the atmosphere) yet does not destroy the planet itself

the detonation creates a blast, flash and cloud that leaves the atmosphere

the status of the planet after impact (when colonised) shows reduced population growth due to strong bombardment radiation and (when destroyed) shows 'unable to colonise due to strong bombardment radiation'

so, with all of that, the most logical conclusion is a missile of some sort fired from a novalith cannon into phase space (either generated by the cannon or the missile itself) it travels at great speed to the enemy planet, where it enters the atmosphere and detonates above the surface of the planet with such force as to create nuclear winter, killing a large percentage of the population and destroying much infrastructure, yet not damaging the planet itself.

this explains the speed, the flash, the smoke cloud, and the post detonation info messages, while fitting into all known lore.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting TheRezonator, reply 27

Problem with using a normal projectile, firing at .99 C the speed of light, according to newtons laws, all the energy that goes into the proctile, goes into the cannon itself.

AKA- that is one large recoil!


what is a normal projectile? do you mean like a railgun slug? because there is no recoil from magnetic weapons.


End of TheRezonator's quote

 

BS.

reaserch basic newtonian mechanics. ANYTIME using ANY METHOD you push on something, it pushes back. You ALWAYS have recoil.

Magnetic acceleration is no differnt, I know, I'v built both a coil gun and a rail gun. (Small versions, of course)

 

If you disagree for some reason, I'd like to see some reputable refernces that state that magnetic acceleration has no recoil.

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top

True, a rail gun would have recoil.  But not as massive as an explosive propellant.  The recoil from a rail could easilly be countered by, oh, say, the massive engine battery on the backside of the cannon.

btw.  You actually built a railgun?  ...  THAT must be why you're callen EvilTesla...

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting TheRezonator, reply 27

what is a normal projectile? do you mean like a railgun slug? because there is no recoil from magnetic weapons.
End of TheRezonator's quote

The magnets used to propel whatever object is being fired experience an equally strong repulsive force from the object (since the object must itself have a magnetic field in order to be propelled by the EM force). Using Whiskey144's numbers from the previous page (a 1 million metric tonne, or 1 billion kilogram, projectile accelerated to 0.5c), we get a relativistic kinetic energy of 1.39 x 10^25 Joules. By definition, one Joule is the energy used by a 1 Newton force to move a 1 kg mass 1 metre. Using the assumption that the Novalith Cannon is 2 kilometres long by the OP and plugging in this data and solving for the force, we have 1.39e25/(1e9*2e3) = 6.95 x 10^12 Newtons of force.

That, needless to say, is a massive amount of force to compensate for.

I haven't touched physics for about 10 months now, but this is accurate to my knowledge.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

The recoil from a rail gun is the same as any other recoil.

It COULD be countered by the engines. (which would explain why they are there, as the thing doesn't move).

But if all the energy came from that initial acceleration, the stresses would be ENORMOUS! Worse than the stresses applied to the planet when the shot hits it. (Becouse now you have the added energy of the engines)

 

Yes, I built a simple rail gun. THough my engineering skills wern't precise enough to get it to fire forward, I could only get it to fire up.

I have also built two Tesla Coils. here is a video of my second coil- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVl2JejGp0

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 16
Its called MAD.  That is why Moscow isn't glass.  Though I think that a war with such a race could have been avoided by the same principle.  AM bombs are deadly, but firing anything near c is overkill.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

I said when they developed nukes.  at that point, MAD wasn't in effect, because they didn't have the delivery systems to get it to the US, and they didn't have enough nukes.  while we had plenty to permantly cripple them at least.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

I once built a coilgun..  And then I fried it with three times the current I was "supposed" to use..  Kinda like when I stuck an LED directly onto a 9-Volt..  It started smoking, so I yanked away the battery.  Unfortunately, it continued to smoke and started hissing.  I threw it across the room fearful that something would happen (very wise idea).  It was about three feet off the ground and twenty feet away from me at this point.  Then it decided to blow up.  Since then, I've always used resistors. O:)  There is a long list of things that I have done that I shouldn't have because I got curious and ended burning something or blowing something up.  On the plus side, I don't try them again.

 

At any rate, CG's do have recoil, I've felt it.  But perhaps the Novalith isn't accelerated using magnetics so much as a relativistic engine.  I'm sure that Tesla has heard of the Emdrive, but as for the rest of you, its a device that the British Dr. Shawyer claims to have developed into two working prototypes.  Using a truncated cone of copper and a magnetron, you can bounce microwaves around, producing thrust in the direction of the wider end.  This has no fuel expenditure, it just needs electricity.  Now, there is no guarantee that it actually works, though one look at his pedigree and you would not find any reason for him to lie about findings for five minutes of fame.  

Now, because it does not throw anything backwards, it could use the railgun on the Novalith to give it a gentle start, but then use its own relativistic drive to accelerate from there.  This would allow the Novalith to fire without any serious effects and would allow the engine to counteract the newtonian forces on it.

I still personally don't think it goes through PS, though it is certainly large enough for one of the TEC's PD's to be on board.

Also, something to wonder about, is why is it the shape it is?  The shot isn't cylindrical, but rather more like a raindrop.  Now, the center of it is also a sphere.  Why?

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

Perhaps the shape has something to do with the Drive....

I actully Havn't heard of the EMdrive, I'll look into....maby build one if it isn't too hard.....If it is hard, convince someone else to build it...

 

EDIT: Looked at picture. To hard for anyone I know of to build one....engeneering probably needs to be too precise.

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

Volt, if you look in the lore, it specifically says that the novalith round travels through phase space.  i believe the actual source is cited earlier in this forum.  as far as the shape goes, i imagine it has something to do with its operation.  do you have any screenshots of a novalith round?  i can't get ahold of one easily to try anaylizing the shape/function (wow. that really sounded geeky :S . 

oh well :thumbsup: )

 

Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top

I posted the paragraph from the lore on the first page but the forums freaked out on me, I tried to elaborate the effects observed by the Novalith shot, but Rezonator put it in better context.

Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top

Volt-

I highly doubt the EmDrive's credibility, as from what you describe, it would be a reactionless drive in a closed system. Which violates pretty much every single law of physics, from Thermodynamics to Relativity.

Note that Solar Sails, Magnetic Sails, and M2P2, which carry no reaction mass, are actually open systems, as such they do not violate said physics laws.

Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top

Wait,  so the Advent have a super weapon that fires allegiance.

 

And you're worried about the physics of a big gun that makes planets go boom?

 

lol

Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top

I just figured the Advent were projecting their minds through their super weapon.

Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top

Becouse there is the possibility of figuring this one out.

Quoting Whiskey144, reply 38
Volt-

I highly doubt the EmDrive's credibility, as from what you describe, it would be a reactionless drive in a closed system. Which violates pretty much every single law of physics, from Thermodynamics to Relativity.

Note that Solar Sails, Magnetic Sails, and M2P2, which carry no reaction mass, are actually open systems, as such they do not violate said physics laws.
End of Whiskey144's quote

After reading the homepage of the device, and some critisims of it. I don't know what to think. On one hand, there is the whole Closed system thing. Which observable violates Newtons laws. But on his homepage, he claims that the Microwave radiation forms a seperate system from the engine itself. Which makes a type of sence.

I think Time will tell wheather it is true or not.

Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top

Time will tell.  But we do have to take into concideration the possibility that there are certain things about physics we don't understand.  I'm not saying this guy did succeed or not.  (Where is the source you saw?  I'd like to take a look, too.)  I'm just saying that we can't say it's immpossible just because we THINK it is.  Someone needs to prove it one way or another before anyone shoots it down, or up.

I just like to have the facts.:grin:

Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Twosteps, reply 39
Wait,  so the Advent have a super weapon that fires allegiance.

 

And you're worried about the physics of a big gun that makes planets go boom?

 

lol
End of Twosteps's quote

Technically, it fires Culture, which is just a bunch a pro-Advent Propaganda which i think is something like a burst transmission/virus that spreads to every available source.  Most people are (Sadly) gullible after all, and would believe pretty much everything they hear on the radio/television, insertfuturisticcommunicationdevicehere.  This seems to be supported by the fact that it isn't permanent, the culture receeds, like it would if the targeted government did a decisive anti-Advent counter attack to regain their people's trust.  (Didn't word that quite right, but i think it should make sense.)

Quoting Allegiance86, reply 40
I just figured the Advent were projecting their minds through their super weapon.
End of Allegiance86's quote

This could be it too, using telepathy rather than radio signals, but it is ultimately the same thing with a different delivery system

  "This is Unity Reeducation Transmition Center 414, broadcasting straight from our Gravity Well to your brain.  Please enjoy the music while we brainwash you and everyone you love and care about into joining our new religion.  Have a nice day and please pay no mind to the fleet of warships we're sending to your planet as we speak.  Welcome to The Unity.  We are One."

Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Allegiance86, reply 40
I just figured the Advent were projecting their minds through their super weapon.
End of Allegiance86's quote

 

Which raises the whole argument of psychic physics.

Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting CallenExile, reply 43

  Most people are (Sadly) gullible after all, and would believe pretty much everything they hear on the radio/television, insertfuturisticcommunicationdevicehere. 
End of CallenExile's quote

I really wanted to disagree with this, and then Twitter came to mind.  : (

 

 

Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Twosteps, reply 44



 

Which raises the whole argument of psychic physics.
End of Twosteps's quote

 

Let's not get into psychic physics. We don't even know how the brain works. How can we begin to speculate on how to control it?

Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top

hey dude if u compare Novalith's length and Novalith's nuke warhead's size real scale with the terran planets, THATS NOT 2km in length 600 m in width, its real time scaling on Novalith's length estimated about a little bit more than the half of the diameter of the terran planet currently ingame.n its projectile lenght is estimated 3000 kms.

 

Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top

yeah, everyone already agrees the actual sizes of units in the game is not realistic.

Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top

Yes, the devs already said that they were not going to make everything to scale, the main reason being: do you know how bloody long it would take to cross a sun's gravity well if it were to scale with planets, ships, etc? :P

 

Theoretically, the cannon could launch a rail-gun missile NOT going near the speed of light (say, maybe 1/2 to 1/4 c) and then a split second later, the warhead would open an advanced phase space window, slowing it to not use phase lanes and go really fast. Additionally, when the projectile is about to hit its target, it could exit phase space right before impact and explode, not ramming the planet at near light-speed (which would in all likely-hood either destroy it, shift it's orbit, make it uninhabitable...permanently, or some combination thereof.)

 

And ,yeah, Evil, I suppose your right about the whole clan thing.

Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top

As far as the Emdrive goes, I hope it works, but I don't know if it will be confirmed.  Once again though, I would love it if we could use it.  If it does work, and the 300 milinewtons of thrust isn't experimental error, then we would see a new age of technology and you can bet that we'll be going to mars very very soon...

 

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