Discussion - TEC techs, Advent superweapon, etc.

1) pretty much; the planetary defense shield didn't stop bombardment anyways, only slowed it.  If it were a cheaper alternative to a starbase, that might be nice, but presently it comes much later in the tech tree and is much less effective.

2) the thing about the Novalith is that any planet that isn't protected by a starbase is free game.  You choose the target, not your enemy, and of course it's going to be a planet without starbase support.  If the enemy has put a starbase with the needed upgrade on every planet, they have paid a steep price to cancel out your superweapon.

3) again, you choose the target, not the enemy.  Yes, lots of culture generators can render an area pretty much impervious to being turned, but it takes a long time to turn these planets anyways even if they only have nominal culture.  In any case, the main effect is that the planet struck with a deliverance signal will give your combat units a bonus for some time, which is quite worthwhile.

Having played Sins in online multiplayer for over a year-and-a-half, I don't think I've EVER seen anyone build that around a planet.  I'm not sure anyone even thinks about it or considers it at all.  That tech might as well not even be on the research tree.

Even with a starbase, it will still reduce the planet population and hence the taxes.  Also, the threat of the Nova forces the enemy to waste money on starbases.

Prior to Entrenchment it was considered pretty useless.  Now it's a little less useless than it was before.

1) I use it on any planet that gets regular pirate attacks, the starbases there are usually upgraded for defenses and not the planet protect thing

2) not all starbases will have that option selected as well, and it forces the other person to use that upgrade instead of something else that might give you an edge in attacking that system

3) same as everyone else

Isn't that a problem that needs to be addressed?

So you believe that the TEC superweapon in fact hasn't been nerfed by starbases, and nothing needs to be done?

(Note that I am NOT implying that TEC is a weak race.  I'm just noticing aspects of the game that seem a little screwed)

The Nova is still pretty strong--even if it won't cause a loss of the planet, it still murders the population on the planet which hurts the economy.  Having to build and upgrade starbases also hurts the economy.

As far as that shield generator structure goes, it might be worth building if it would protect against or at least reduce the amount of damage done by a Nova shot.  I don't know if it does or not, but if it does I've never seen anyone put one up.  I don't think its uselessness is really a problem; all of the races have a couple useless techs here and there.

The problem with the Shield Generator would be its position in the tech tree. The structure itself is at Tier 5 Civilian and provides 30% bombing mitigation (last I checked, a Novalith does 3500 dmg, so it gets reduced to 2450 dmg). At Tier 7 is a tech that upgrades the mitigation to 50% and then 80% (so Pirate sieges, which normally do 25 damage, are reduced to 5).

Although it can make planets 5 times tougher (it would take 9 Novalith warheads to bring down a 6k HP planet protected by a SG with no chance to regenerate), its so high up in the Civ tech tree its not worth pursuing in the overwhelming majority of cases.

The Shield Generator was changed to be in the Defense tree in Entrenchment BTW.

If the SG was lower, I think it would be highly useful for Entrenchment, ESPECIALLY if the net cost (labs+research+time+structure itself) of the generator was lower by a significant margin (like 67% the cost of the SB stuff) than the Starbase option (labs+research+tech time+constructor cost/time+setting up the base+paying for the upgrade).

In Entrenchment it is somewhat excaserbated because the generator is in the Defense tree ALONG WITH the SB stuff.

InfiniteVoid -- are you certain that the Shield Generator will protect against a Novalith strike, or are you just speculating that it would reduce the damage?

So, anyway, how much lower on the tech tree would they need to put it before people started building them and how would it impact the game?

I think the SG should be a tier 3 tech - with the upgrades only going to tier 5.  That would allow them to come out early midgame if needed, and cause a significant slowdown to any attack, giving the defensive player a chance to jump in reinforcements.

I rarely see super weapons, so I don't consider them much of a threat.  A strong fleet will trump supers any day, every day.  (though I find the Vasari jumping to be VERY useful)

The shield generator is a bit of a problem for me, and I don't think lowering its tier level alone would bring it into the realm of usefulness. 

The shield generator (and the auxiliary government starbase upgrade) both are useful in one and only one situation: where you do not have the ability to stop the enemy from bombarding, and the enemy does not have the ability to destroy the tactical structures in the gravity well.  The case of the novalith notwithstanding, this implies that you have a relatively thick static defense network somewhere in this gravity well, and the enemy fleet is clearly superior to your own.  There's one very important subtext here: this planet is very important for some reason, because you've invested a lot of money in static defense.

The starbase offers a very permanent solution: the enemy can't claim the planet until the starbase is downed, and this means it's the attacker who must come and get the defender, not the other way around.  A shield generator offers a very temporary solution: no matter how upgraded it is, the attacker will eventually break the planet.  In other words, the defender must eventually come after the attacker.  It does nothing but buy a little extra time which may or may not be enough to do something about the situation.  In practice, if five minutes isn't enough time, ten minutes probably isn't either.  Unless you're at a very special stage of the game (for instance, an ally recently knocked out an enemy and a bunch of dominos are about to fall) entrenched battles rarely turn so spontaneously.  Chances are you need a permanent solution. 

That's a big reason to pick a starbase over a shield generator, but there are two other reasons.  The first is that if the enemy cannot take this planet in a reasonable amount of time, a common solution is just to bypass it and move on to the next planet.  A starbase will greatly punish an enemy for doing this, perhaps giving you enough of an edge to beat them in a straight fight.  A shield generator not so much.  The second reason is that the enemy might just decide to rush your defenses and take out the shield generator.  No one in their right mind would attempt to rush a starbase without a massive advantage, so a starbase is also much more difficult to counter.

A shield generator may be cheaper, but it's very hard to compare with a starbase for effect, and for this reason I think that simply tweaking its cost and position in the tech tree is insufficient.  I believe the shield generator needs to be completely retooled so it does something that a starbase cannot offer.  This is very similar to the issue of PJI's and starbases.  Both have a role in punishing people who attempt to bypass, but in different ways.  With a PJI, you get some extra time and an attack of opportunity before the enemy leaves.  With a starbase, the enemy takes significant damage upon arrival in the next well.  While their role is the same, the exact effects are different and this gives the PJI a very real role even when a starbase is already in play.  A shield generator, on the other hand, is just a weak version of the starbase's effect.

So should we try to define a retooling for the SG, and offer up such an idea to be included in the next expansion?

Forget the shield generator, its a sily idea anyway

As for the Novalith being useless with the starbase planet-lockdown thingy, i reckon that the big bomb impact should retard the planet in more ways than population growth. The description says massive damage to infrastructure, so lets make it reduce population caps and pretty much any of the planet upgrades. THAT makes it worthwhile even if the SB prevents loss of control

^ I agree, if you destroy the infastructure, forcing the local govt. to switch over to a starbase...dont they need to replace said infratructure before getting back on course?

My idea for additional effects of the shield generator:

Allows permits to be issued for city expansion and growth.  Attracts more colonists from the system to live there because of the protection and safety of the shield generator.

ADDED BENEFIT: POPULATION INCREASE.

actually, that does make sense. having a shield generator to protect from bombing probably would allow a colony to expand more - less time and effort building those damn bomb shelters

A few suggestions on the matter of improving the shield:

1. Reduce enemy culture influnce, but provide no bonus to culture.

2. Give it an AOE ability that gives an area of space the mitigation bonus, meaning everything in that space is harder to kill.

3. Give it an offensive ability, firing a beam that pushes ships in a wave.

4. Allow it to target Starbases instead.

5. Finally, let it enhance all the buildings in orbit, giving them better survival ratings.

My vote is give the Planet an actual shield, kinda like ships do.

It would probably make it more useful then slowing the missles. And make it more noticable as to what the effect is. Thats my two cents.

Either as AdmiralSol says: give it an actual shield equal to the real hp of the planet, or make the planet immune to bombardment until the generator is destroyed. The generator's hp would probably need to be buffed in that case and maybe given a shield of its own.

yeah, i think the mitigation thing is silly. Every other shield in the game is like a second hull - you have to batter it down before the main actual hull takes damage, so the planet shild should do this too