Is Vasari Underpowered and is it time to reduce the nerf on RA?

 

Is Vasari now underpowered and as a result is it time to reduce the strength of the nerfing on Returning Armada?

It seems like fewer and fewer experienced players want to play Vasari now and since scout and light frigate spam is in vogue, Vasari really gets the short end of the stick.  By making Returning Armada more worthwhile, perhaps people would want to start playing Vasari again?  What if the current cost of using RA were cut in half?  Also, Skirmishers need to have their fleet supply cost reduced, perhaps down to a cost of 5 fleet supply.

34,216 views 31 replies
Reply #1 Top

Vasari is very underpowered early game. And its not a RA problem, its unefective scouts and bugged lums. Its also higher unit cost, and when u have no neuts around or u play agains oponent with brain, u r screwed. U dont need to fix RA u need advantage at the start.

 

and what u need most is

 

FIX DAMED LUMS

 

BTW , Blair, did u already fix a glitch in your chip?

Reply #2 Top

Returning Armada is fine.  The problem is early game Vasari are completely dependent on their starbases to be competitive and are unlikely to make it to endgame to benefit from their endgame techs (like RA).  Vasari can still be made to work, but it is very hard....which you immediately notice when you play a game as Advent instead.  Because players realize they are not going to beat the other races making frigates, they have switched to tactics like Starbase rushing.....and playing Advent instead.   =)

Reply #3 Top

By the time Vasari hit the higher tiers with phase stabilizers they're fine.  The problem with Vasari is early game, not late.

 

RA is fine IMO.

Reply #4 Top

Ya try using subs.I think they are more op than repulse.

Reply #5 Top

Vasari are forced to rely on random chance (neuts), straight up superior play, starbase rushing, or overall just being a better strategist. its really because of the unit cost and how relatively weak the vasari units are.

Reply #6 Top

is it time to reduce the nerf on RA?
End of quote

Yes! Give me advantages no one else has!

RA is fine IMO
End of quote

I'm flattered but unless you're a darvina and not a darvin, my back door doesn't swing that way.

Moment of seriousness,

biggest issues to me are:

Vasari doesn't really have a solid non-starbase non-capital ship answer to Illums. This is a mix of a weak scout and a bugged Illum.

The light frig is also pathetic, or at the least in an optimists eyes, underpowered compared to disciples and cobalts .

Personally, I feel this has to do with two things. One, the more recent buff to light frigs. The skirmisher's weakness has become more apparent and the Illums strength even more so.

Second, I feel quick-start ruined Vasari balance in online play. Why? For those who remember the days of no-quick start, there's about 15 minutes at the start of a game where all you're really doing is scouting. This is where Vasari's ability to get neutrals quick came into play. They had a jump on resources that no one else had, and it was a part of the race's play. With quick-start, this advantage has been reduced, as everyone now has enough money early on to sustain a rush with say only two or three planets.

Personally, I'd like to see people play with no-quickstart again. I don't buy the arguement that it slows the game down by hours. I'd say ballpark 15 min. Never gonna happen, but one can dream.

 

Reply #7 Top

I agree that something has to be done about the returning Dark Fleet, the nerf was far too drastic for a very expensive tech.  The returns are very marginal, especially with the cooldown having been increased to 10 minutes, and the danger of imbalance seem minimal when it takes eight civic labs to research it.  I'd return it to free 25-45 supply, with the increased cooldown... perhaps increase the cooldown slightly, if necessary. 

Also, having Skirmishers at 7 supply creates the obvious mismatch that 4 Skirmishers have to be the equivalent of 7 Disciples.  If it was just an edge then you could look to balance in other areas, but to have one ship almost twice as numerous as the other of the same type..?

One early balance fix would be to help Vasari out with improved repair bays.. it has constantly annoyed me that the supposedly shield-focused Advent get the second-best repair, while the ship repair specialists get the worst- how is this justified...??  Nerf the Advent repair and buff the Vasari repair- and perhaps allow it a researchable extra level with a specialist ability like a reintegration boost to further help below-par Skirmishers and Enforcers?   

Quick start makes it too easy for Illuminator spammers, as well as rewarding scripted moves rather than reaction to scout reports.  I'll play without quick start whenever there is the opportunity.  The game wasn't designed for 5s either.. most of the included maps are 1s 2s and 3s.   With the smaller games quickstart makes even more of a difference.  However, normal start is bugged for the current version of Entrenchment.

Vasari would also profit from multis rather than the single maps that are being used.  As it happens, I've made some new multis with a larger proportion of neutrals, use the downloads tab, or this link:

https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.aspx?libid=70

Please hotfix the Illuminators!!  

Reply #8 Top

All the issues with Vasari (with the exception of RA) and Illums are on the PSCF.

Im confident the DEVS will accept the proposed changes to the units in question in the next patch. I cant imagine how ridiculously underpowered Vasari are in Vanilla sins (ie without SBs). I don't think Ive played a game since Entrenchment came out that the Orkulus didn't play a major roll in simply because Vasari have no other early game options. No doubt a boost to the Skirms is needed, and will cut down on scout spam and carrier spam against them. And buffing the vasari scout will help them dominate neutrals early game as they need to (and once did) as well as give a possible solution to Illum spam (certainly once the mystery dmg issue is resolved). I agree these are the biggest issues of this patch and certainly if nothing else, these need to be addressed.

 

Reply #9 Top

Ya try using subs.I think they are more op than repulse.
End of quote

Subs with distortion field are tier 6.  How you gonna live long enough to get those out on the field of battle?  I still say they are too micro-intensive and fragile for practical use anyway, plus they were nerfed back in the day.

Second, I feel quick-start ruined Vasari balance in online play.
End of quote

Agree 100%.  But in addition to the neutrals you spoke of, they could also get assailants out with 1 lab, which to me allowed them to get a nice little jump back in the days before scout spam was so abundant.  But with quick start even Advent can just drop 2 mil labs at the hw, 1 at the roid, and start making illums right off the bat.

Quick start isn't the fault of the devs, it's the fault of the online players who kept screaming for faster games.  The devs responded with a VOLUNTARY option (as it should be), people always choose to play with that VOLUNTARY option enabled and won't consider a game that doesn't have it... and now they scream about vasari being underpowered.  Well, we shouldn't balance races around voluntary quick start.  You want quick start?  Accept a weak vasari.  You want a chance at a viable vasari?  Choose to play normal start.

I agree that something has to be done about the returning Dark Fleet, the nerf was far too drastic for a very expensive tech.
End of quote

I agree with this.  I mean, if vasari are to be saddled with weak, expensive, high-supply units, then give them back RA so they can get free units to supplement their force with... (if they live that long ha ha)

really, vasari have just been beaten with the nerf bat in general.  You could go down the list of nerfs to vasari (meanwhile, something ridiculous like mb will never be nerfed).  I mean, someone at Ironclad had a grudge against the vasari, lol.

Vasari doesn't really have a solid non-starbase non-capital ship answer to Illums. This is a mix of a weak scout and a bugged Illum.
End of quote

Hell, even the sb solution doesn't fly once you hit a critial mass of those damn things.

At any rate, I think vasari flak is lacking too, which doesn't help my attempts to counter illum spam.  If their flak was better, they might not need a buffed scout.  One thing that happened was, charged missles with sentinals used to apply to everything it fired at, but it was nerfed (there's that word again) to only apply to strikecraft.

I have lots of other beefs with the vasari too.  Some people disagree and think overseers and subs are the bomb, but I think they suck for a variety of reasons, chiefly being too underpowered for their place on the tech tree and their expense, too fragile (drop like flies to a few fighters or anything else), too micro-intensive, not omni-directional or turn too slow to be useful, on and on.  I mean, compare an overseer to a hoshiko and... well, there is no comparison in my book, yet the hoshiko is tier 3, is armored like a tank compared to an overseer, on and on... (yeah, I know some will disagree).

Reply #10 Top

I agree that something has to be done about the returning Dark Fleet, the nerf was far too drastic for a very expensive tech.
End of quote

I actually greatly disagree with this, Dark fleet is an end game stratagy (hence the 8 lab requirement) by the time you get enough labs for it you should have trade up, along with a good econ. if you have a good econ you can easil outproduce any other race by a rediculous amount, and couple that with kostras and phase gates, Vasari have by far The best end game of any race.

I have won games by getting RA because it allows me to easly outproduce my enemy and gives me the upper hand.

THE PROBLEM

The main problem is vasari Never get to the end game stages online because games are too quick. The problem is Vasari are end game monsters on ICO but games rarely get past the middle stages.

For the Single player community the vasari are balanced fine, because they have great end games and people always get to the end game. and 99% of sins players are Single player so it is unlikly that the devs will rebalance it to make the Vasari stronger early game.

 so really im not expecting the situation with the vasari to improve at all.

_|~Uber

 

Reply #11 Top

(Wow super long post here but I am waiting for my wife to call so I can't start a game anyway.)

 

I play Vasari about 99% of the time these day and have a record of 185 games, 115 wins and 23 loses.  The majority of my games that aren't wins or loses are mini dumps, remakes/desync and having an ally leave early during a just for fun comp stomp.  Funny enough I started playing Vasari because most of the time I am the only person on my team who would and sometimes in the entire game.  I would say in games of average to above average skill, 70% of the people are advent.  In most skilled games it is probably 50%, as skilled players know that at least someone on their team has to play Vasari.

Now hopefully no one takes this the wrong way but this discussion reminds me of the saying, "The problem isn't drunk driving, the problem is that nobody knows how to drive drunk".  Okay obviously drunk driving is a problem but the saying does have merit to this discussion.  People want the Vasari to be Advent with phase missiles and planet suck.  Thats just not who the Vasari are.  You aren't going to win games as Vasari by mass spamming ships, against a skilled opponent it just can't be done. 

Vasari's early game talent is killing capital ships, exploding your econ with neutrals, the orky and phase inhibitors.  Now occasionally a random map won't have neutrals but most do.  But still, if you aren't using all of these advantages within the first 15-20 minutes then no wonder you are struggling with Vasari.  Beyond that the most important key to victory as Vasari is heavily upgraded phase missiles (30% at least but damage is also nice), a ton of assailants, fighter and bombers (if needed) and whatever ships you need to keep those assailants/carriers alive.  The one exceptions to this is Advent scout/disciple rush which I'll talk about in a sec.  The thing is though, upgraded phase missiles are so effective against Advent that by the time a ships shields are down, the hull is usually half way gone too.  If your opponent isn't paying super close attention to a battle by the time he hears "Our capital ships shields are down" it will already be too late to save it.  I've even killed caps which still had shields because even though they were using shield restore the hull points fell to 0.  Not only does this make phase missiles the single most deadly weapon in the game, but it is the only weapon in the game shared by all of a races capital ships, lrfs, fighters, bombers and starbase. 

You guys have touched on Vasari's one true early game downfall though, the Advent disciple/scout rush.  Assailant will counter the disciples, but scout will counter the assailant.  Flak will counter the scouts, but disciples will counter the flak.  Disciples and scouts cost less, can be built faster and cost less fleet supply then assailants and flak.  It is the same as in chess, if my bishop protects a spot and so does your pawn, the spot belongs to you.  IMO advent needs to be nerfed, not vasari getting a buff.  Now early game illum spam doesn't bother me and I fight through it all the time.  Illums need flak or fighter support to stay alive and if you build carriers and flak, then you really aren't illum spamming anyway.  Late game illum spam on the other had is ridiculous and can't be beat by anything but a super econ, kodiak/hoshiko spamming, doesn't care that all his capital ships die in the first 30 seconds of a battle type of man.  Once again they need to fix the bug with illum damage. 

Here are some under used Vasari tactics...

1.  Not only having enough scouts to capture all the neutrals from non vasari players, but having enough scouts to kill those colony frigates that people will send the get them back.  Packs of 5-6 scouts work great.  If the neutrals are near the sun I will rest them there when not in use because of the anti-matter buff and frankly because the sun is a non factor in most games and no one ever checks it.  Worm holes, plasma clouds and dead asteroids work well to for hiding those scouts till they need to jump in, kill a colony frig, recapture the neutral then jump out. 

2.  Micro managing the Egg's two cap killing abilities.  Using nano disassembler and the other one that I've forgotten the name but is disables phase jump and makes a ship move slower.  Nano disassembler is fairly simple as long as you don't over use it.  I prefer to wait until the shields are down because you want the armor loss to count.  Also never use it until you are out of anti-matter as that will cause problems with ability #2.  Always micro ability #2 because it is basically worthless for it's ship slowing properties.  Always use it when that dying cap is trying to escape because it will buy you a few more seconds to kill it.  If you time it just right you can make them charge their jump engines twice. 

3.  Star base bluffing.  Sometimes I feel like I am the only one who uses this.  Always have a colony ship handy, even if you don't have the money for a SB or don't even have it researched yet (very few zoom in to check).  There are three ways to use this.  The first is to have it on the very far side of the gravity well from the enemy's point of attack.  Usually they will commit ships to destroying it while you are killing them.  If they don't take the bait with it just sitting there, move it to somewhere like you are going to build the base there.  Almost all people will bite at this.  When the ships get close, jump it away from the planet, move it to the other side of the phase lane then jump it back.  Do this until he is finally able to kill it.  The second way (an the best if you use phase inhibitors) is when you see that fleet jumping towards you, because you were smart and researched that ability for 400 credits and 25 crystal, jump it back towards their planet.  By the time they see it the ship will have a head start towards the next planet.  This will either compel them to send ships back, or will delay the reinforcement while they track it down and kill it.  The third way requires you to have the money to build one, but works great too.  You will start building one to try to get your opponent to focus his fire on it instead of your ships.  While he is doing that you are killing his ships but he isn't killing yours.  Just before your starbase dies, scuttle it and get the majority of your money back.  Never let a building SB die, always scuttle it for money!!!!  Then you will be mostly on your way to having enough money for another one. 

4. Using the Orky.  Oh wait that isn't under used at all :).  I do like the orky though for finishing off people who turtle at their home planet.  Build it right next to your cap's for protection, upgrade it until it out matches theirs, then send it over for the kill.  This is the best way to kill a repulse user because it doesn't rely on strike craft. 

As far as RA, overseers, subverters, enforcers and so on...  They don't use phase missiles so I don't build that many of them.  Remember the two steps to winning mid to late game vasari...

1.  Upgrade phase missiles

2.  Use phase missiles

(3. Don't let an advent opponent survive long enough to get to late game tactics)

As always your thoughts are welcome.

Reply #12 Top

You guys have touched on Vasari's one true early game downfall though, the Advent disciple/scout rush. Assailant will counter the disciples, but scout will counter the assailant. Flak will counter the scouts, but disciples will counter the flak. Disciples and scouts cost less, can be built faster and cost less fleet supply then assailants and flak. It is the same as in chess, if my bishop protects a spot and so does your pawn, the spot belongs to you. IMO advent needs to be nerfed, not vasari getting a buff. Now early game illum spam doesn't bother me and I fight through it all the time. Illums need flak or fighter support to stay alive and if you build carriers and flak, then you really aren't illum spamming anyway. Late game illum spam on the other had is ridiculous and can't be beat by anything but a super econ, kodiak/hoshiko spamming, doesn't care that all his capital ships die in the first 30 seconds of a battle type of man. Once again they need to fix the bug with illum damage.
End of quote

This is the heart of the matter.  You pretty much agree with the other posts, apparently.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 12

You guys have touched on Vasari's one true early game downfall though, the Advent disciple/scout rush. Assailant will counter the disciples, but scout will counter the assailant. Flak will counter the scouts, but disciples will counter the flak. Disciples and scouts cost less, can be built faster and cost less fleet supply then assailants and flak. It is the same as in chess, if my bishop protects a spot and so does your pawn, the spot belongs to you. IMO advent needs to be nerfed, not vasari getting a buff. Now early game illum spam doesn't bother me and I fight through it all the time. Illums need flak or fighter support to stay alive and if you build carriers and flak, then you really aren't illum spamming anyway. Late game illum spam on the other had is ridiculous and can't be beat by anything but a super econ, kodiak/hoshiko spamming, doesn't care that all his capital ships die in the first 30 seconds of a battle type of man. Once again they need to fix the bug with illum damage.


This is the heart of the matter.  You pretty much agree with the other posts, apparently.
End of Cykur's quote

Selective reading can be fun, but it tends to leave something out.  This thread isn't titled "Do Vasari fall prey to disciple/scout spam", it is titled "Is Vasari Underpowered and is it time to reduce the nerf on RA?"  Make an adult like response and I'll be happy to have a discussion with you on why I feel Vasari is underrated. 

Reply #14 Top

Bug LUMS. THERE'S YA PROBLEM. I've been playing games and those LUMS are more powerfull now then before.

Reply #15 Top

I have not been play sins resonly but here is a few of my thoughs.

1. I have always thought that the vas ships should be stronger than any other ships. The cost of a Skirmisher in money and supply should a least intital it way better DPS and health points than any other Lf. If I come in with the same amount of ships as my opponet I should win hands down. It should not even be close because I spend way more per Lfs than any other race so I figure I should get a better product. So WHY DO ARE THE DAM VASARI LFs SO WEAK?!#*(*$^(*4U#$Y >:( Regeneration only should give be a reason for a a small nerf in stats, not a big one that puts it on the same lvl as the other lfs.

2. Also for the Enforcer. This HCs should be the king of kings when it comes to HCs If you see even 5 of these bastards you should be ready for the fight of your life but just like the Skirms they have no love. Many vas players I knew never even made these because they are not worth a cent. These ships by right should be little Capital ships that you will hait to even see. One, I mean one should be hard compaired to other HCs to take down. So devs, why no love?

3. For the support ships. The overseer I am fine with its healing abilty but has some other very lackuster abilties. I think the jump degridation should be alowed to stack but have a long cool down like 5 mins and high am cost. The

radar ablity should give you details like types of ships and where they will exit phase space. So you can get supprise ready like mines since yours overseers are delaying there arrival. }:)

About subs all I can say is they are fine but need higher survivablity.

4. Cap ships

It sound like every cap is fine except the Marader. The simple anwser is make that ship is fast as lf and it will serve its purpose. Do nothing else. That ship is for hit and run so it should be fast as hell.

This is my semi-long list of compants and Ideas. I hope dev can a least tell use why the vasari are so weak. Though I think they are afraid of the outcry that there reasons are not very good.(Like they love those Advent girls a little to much :\   go figure)

Coments please and any other sugestions?

 

Reply #16 Top

The problem with Vasari is that their ships are too expensive and weak. Seriously, compare the Junsurak with the Garda and Defense Vessel (Junsurak has 16 DPS, some 1500 HP/Shields, Garda has 14 DPS and a billion HP, and Defense has 19 DPS and some 1400 HP/Shields, and Junsuraks cost 5 Fleet), and they're the closest Vasari ship 'balanced' with their counterparts! I can accept Assailants being weak early-on because they come out so early and become very powerful by late-game, but the rest of their combat ships need considerable balance changes. Skirms suck, Junsuraks suck, and Navigators are barely useful. It really restricts Vasari to using caps and Starbases, and usually Carriers.

Vasari just can't compete in a straight-up battle until late in the game. The problem is far less so against TEC, but Vasari is screwed against Advent. They have no real viable way to compete with Seekers, Disciples, and Illums.

Reply #17 Top

For the Single player community the vasari are balanced fine
End of quote

Yeah I agree with this.

Reply #18 Top

Selective reading can be fun, but it tends to leave something out. This thread isn't titled "Do Vasari fall prey to disciple/scout spam", it is titled "Is Vasari Underpowered and is it time to reduce the nerf on RA?" Make an adult like response and I'll be happy to have a discussion with you on why I feel Vasari is underrated.
End of quote

Pot calling kettle.  You typed up a lovely Vasari strategy guide, but seem to agree where the problem lies. (cough EARLY GAME  cough)  Everyone has their own opinion of what needs to be done to correct the situation....your suggestion of an Advent nerf/correction would certainly imply you think Vasari is underpowered vs Advent, no?

Reply #19 Top

Well let me ask some of the experts about this?  I've been getting hit with a TON of halcyon spammers lately.  In fact, every game I've had the last few nights, if they were an advent opponent, they were spamming halcyons with a 2 halcyon start, one built right after the other, with more to follow.  Now, I tried to counter this with the vasari skirantra, but my results were lackluster.

So this brings me to my question.  In that last patch or two, they buffed capships, which was fantastic and long-needed and long-deserved.  The tec sova went from a "crapship" to a capship, one of the best.  And the halcyon was buffed pretty good as well.  But besides receiving additional strikecraft, which all the carriers received, what the hell else did the skirantra receive?  I mean, it didn't get better repair than it had before.  The microphasing aura stayed the same.  The only candidate that I can think of is the scramble bombers ability, which sucked before.  Well, correct me if I am wrong, but the ability STILL SEEMS TO SUCK, and it seems that the skirantra received far less of a buff than did the halcyon or the sova, so it was a an effective nerf.

Am I right about that?  What did the skirantra get besides additional strikecraft?

Reply #20 Top

Scramble bombers is pretty nice now.You can field alot of bombers with it if you have the am.If you can field some flak with skirantra you will be able to ground the halys.If you have a skirantra or 2 with 5 flak and he has 15 lf and 10 scouts then ya gg.Point is in early game is you cannot let him outproduce you.

Reply #21 Top

Agreed scramble bombers is a lot better now, but the problem is it won't help you against halcs, so it doesnt seem very useful (when 90% of the time thats what you're running into). Mindseye is right though, a couple of flaks with your skirantras will keep the fighters AND bombers down, just be sure you keep your fleet (SC included) close so you can heal them.

Reply #22 Top

The only time scramble will help you is if you both have nothin but bombers because then the one with most bombers will prob win.Even if he has tk you can heal them when they come back to asttack.As I believe howthe stated you have to know when to use it then its very powerful.

Reply #23 Top

The problem is the halcyon bombers.  2 halyons walz into my homeworld 30 seconds after game starts and there is nothing I can do.  I starbase... well of course it dies instantly to bombers.  I attack with my capship, of course it dies to bombers.  I produce another colonizer capship so I can just run away and colonize a roid somewhere and survive, it is chased down in the next grav well and it dies.  Meanwhile I have snuck another sb onto his homeworld, and he just takes the halcyons over there, and it dies, then it's back to my homeworld to continue bombing it.  I try to get some carriers out loaded with fighters to counter all the damn bombers, the fighters get bitchslapped and can't kill the bombers.  I guess the counter is to just assume an advent player is near you from the get-go, and have an all out strat of running away as fast as you can to colonize somewhere else.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 18

Selective reading can be fun, but it tends to leave something out. This thread isn't titled "Do Vasari fall prey to disciple/scout spam", it is titled "Is Vasari Underpowered and is it time to reduce the nerf on RA?" Make an adult like response and I'll be happy to have a discussion with you on why I feel Vasari is underrated.


Pot calling kettle.  You typed up a lovely Vasari strategy guide, but seem to agree where the problem lies. (cough EARLY GAME  cough)  Everyone has their own opinion of what needs to be done to correct the situation....your suggestion of an Advent nerf/correction would certainly imply you think Vasari is underpowered vs Advent, no?
End of Cykur's quote

It's not so much that Vasari are weak against Advent early game, but that Vasari and TEC are weak against Advent early game.  There are 3 factions in this game you know.  It seems silly and self defeating to see Vasari get a buff this patch, only to have people stop playing TEC until the game can buff them in the next patch.  Illums are so powerful now that I consider them to be a "counter" to the TEC Jav even though they are both lrf's.  And good luck saving your home world as TEC early game, because a SB takes 3 military labs and auxiliary government take 4.  For Vasari it is 2 for each. 

There is a reason why in a game of 8 people, 6 will play Advent.  If it was just the Vasari being weak then you would think online players would split more evenly between Advent and TEC. 

Reply #25 Top

Quoting NWcityguy2, reply 24


It's not so much that Vasari are weak against Advent early game, but that Vasari and TEC are weak against Advent early game.  There are 3 factions in this game you know.  It seems silly and self defeating to see Vasari get a buff this patch, only to have people stop playing TEC until the game can buff them in the next patch.  Illums are so powerful now that I consider them to be a "counter" to the TEC Jav even though they are both lrf's.  And good luck saving your home world as TEC early game, because a SB takes 3 military labs and auxiliary government take 4.  For Vasari it is 2 for each. 

There is a reason why in a game of 8 people, 6 will play Advent.  If it was just the Vasari being weak then you would think online players would split more evenly between Advent and TEC. 
End of NWcityguy2's quote

TEC's problem against Advent is far less severe than with Vasari. At least with TEC, they have a good chance at fighting an Illum spam. Gardas actually fight Illums fairly well, and TEC ships are fast and cheap enough to fight both Advent Scout/Disciple rushes and Illums. Though of course, that doesn't excuse how completely dominating Advent is in multiplayer.

I'm completely sick of Advent, really. I just can't play them anymore. They're too powerful. Their 'bad economy' is completely false because of the Progen and early culture. And Seekers and Disciples are extremely cheap to build. So it really leaves us with a faction with overpowered ships everywhere and no real weakness. Just weaken Advent ships all-around and give Vasari some boosts, and the game would be much more balanced.

Also, TEC does have some problems. Mainly that their SC and the Kol Battleship suck.