my bad, copy/paste error continued with glorious fashion from Darvin3's post. It should be subvertors to disable a fleet. And the subverters use their Distortion Field ability to disable the frigates from moving away and disables their weapons so they cannot destroy the mines before they activate.

Edit- I'm not questioning whether zoomers used overseers or not in Darvin3's game only my recollection of the matterin my game. As I've heard this described in other threads Subverters are used. I still need to watch the replay to see what exactly what he did again.

Actually, there is nothing obvious (to me, anyway) about this game or the way it plays.  It doesn't play intuitively, so the only way to figure things out is to do rote testing and memorization of the results.

This was a test in asymetric warfare.  He comes cap heavy?  Fine, I go all frigs for pure dps, don't build a cap so that I can use those supply slots for my frigs without having to fleet up (I can build a cap later in game), and thus put my stronger economy against his weaker economy.  This was pure strategy.  Did it work?  Of course not, but that was the rationale behind it.  Like I said, this game doesn't play intuitively so things just have to be tried.

Back to the drawing board.

It does play intuitively; carrier cap will get bombers to counter your capital ship.  If your capital ship isn't around - shock - it switches to fighters to counter LRF.  This is perfectly intuitive and predictable.

I'm saying in general it doesn't play intuitively.  If you are offering up some specific situation, like the one you just outlined, sure it might in that case.

This was 3 seperate tests, 2 involving lrf, one involving lf.  It seems you are nitpicking my going lrf in two of those tests when he would go fighter to counter.  But there is no nitpick here.  Yeah, he countered me with fighters.  I also countered him with assailants.  So who would win?  I didn't know, thus the test.

Maybe you have a magic intuition for this game, but I don't.  So I have to test.

Just got out of another game.  I will relate what happened, but it's nothing out of the ordinary, it's just case in point.  So I'm vasari, I scout right away and realize there is Advent right on my doorstep 2 jumps away.  Okay, I already know what's coming, so I prepare.  I see that he's building seeker and disciple combo, so assailants are out.  I start building skirmishers.  I drop a second, then a third frig factory just so I can continuously pump.  He hits my roid, starts bombing it, we start fighting.  I bring in my egg and nano one of his carriers continuously, but then had to pull it because after just 2 passes with the bombers it already lost full shields and was gonna go down quick.  So I pulled the egg while continuing to pump skirmishers into the fray.  Then I see illuminators jumping in.  I said "you know, fuck this" and hit the quit button.  All too standard.

Screw carriers.  The problem is with Advent themselves.  They can afford to build 2 capships right off the bat, have a fleet of disciples, AND have illuminators in no time, and do it all without feed.  Where as vasari you can go 1 capship to try to have more dps fleet than he has, and you are STIL screwed.  You can never go assailants, he'll just seeker you.  You can't go navigator to counter his illums because he will disciple you.  You go skirmishers - the worst unit in the game - and then the illums roll in, in no time flat.  I hate Advent.  I really hate Advent's guts.

EDIT:  What aspect of Advent ISN'T broken?  Their seekers are too strong, their disciples are too cheap, cost too little supply, too strong, build too fast.  Illums - well everybody already knows about those.  Guardian repulse is ridiculous - one and on.

Well, if you are going to be rushed by carriers, you need a Skirantra.  Period.  End of story.  Without one, I see no way unless you have hangars with phasic traps up and some flak.  All the same, I didn't see anything about repair bays.  I apologize if I missed it, but if you did not use any, that is your fault for not having them.  Repair bays are going to make a fleet stand against something twice as large.

Even when rushing, having it atleast researched is a good idea.

And make repairs as soon as you colonize enemy planet.

They need fixing yes, but I think you could have solved your problem by going with it.  You built three factories.  That is all well and good, except that you don't really need all of them..  Repair bays are tier 1, its not that much, and besides, Skirmishers are horrible anyways.  If you don't have repair bays, you are doomed.  They may not help at the beginning, but when each of your ships is living twice as long as it normally would, I'd say that's a pretty good deal...

Vasari repair bays still have oh what is it?  20/25* hps for 10 seconds I believe.  Now, that may not seem like a whole lot, but that negates the damage of multiple illuminators all firing on one ship.  I'd say its a pretty good deal.  That and unless I am mistaken, Vasari repair bays have the shortest cooldown.  Sure, they don't have the massive 40 hps of TEC (which require research to be oh so good btw), but its still good.

So, I do believe that doing so would make your ships last twice as long.  Yes the Advent are OP, but in the defender always has advantages.  The largest would be repair bays, and if you don't use what is available to you and then blame it on the OPness of the Advent, all you are doing is kinda-half-trying to win.

Let's look at some comparisons:

Seeker>Navigator

Disciple>Skirmisher

Illuminator=Assailant (I say this because Assailants come out earlier and have PM's which become awesome late game)

Defense=Sentinel (see previous reason)

Now, you know you will never get anywhere with Navigators and Skirmishers.  Its common sense.  They cost more and do less.  They are not worth it in the least.  For this reason, you know you could never win that way.  So what options are left?  Assailants, Sentinels, Capitals, and Repair Platforms.

Assailants are going to ripped apart so they are out as the key to victory.  Sentinels will get shredded by Disciples, so they are out.  Capitals are going to draw a blank, though they will help level the playing field.  The only option left is your best.  Repair Platforms.  While they do no direct damage, they heal you at 20/25 HPS for 10 seconds.  That is 200/250 hull points.  And I believe that most frigates have 3 armor and mitigation goes up to about 60.  Let's see what that means.

Damage taken is more or less this formula:

Hull=Hull-DPS*miti_remainder*armor_remainder.

However, healing while taking damage is the following...

Hull=Hull-DPS*miti_remainder*armor_remainder+repair.

So, let's switch up the formula to find how much damage it takes to punch through it, shall we?

Repair=DPS*miti_remainder*armor_remainder.

And let's say that the repair platform heals 20 HPS.  You then simply solve for DPS.

20=DPS*.40*.85

DPS=58.82

So, that means that a single repair platform can hold off at least 6 Illuminators against one frigate.  The result is higher if used on a capital.  That means that while you may be outgunned, your ships are going to last a whole lot longer than theirs will.  For that reason you ought to be able to hold them off until you become advanced enough to counter.  Late game, the Vasari can slaughter forces with all their toys.  Sub+Ruiners for instance is a very deadly combo.  I used that against a hard AI the other day for the first time..  

A fleet of about 1000 FC went away.  Capitals died, frigates died, everything went BOOOOOOOM!!!!  After seeing it, I didn't know whether to be terrified or happy, so my result was nervous laughter.  I checked the stats as well.  Vasari Emines are by far the most devastating as they have a huge range and then of course deal massive damage.

Back on subject...  You have to hold out and colonize, building up your military and economy before slamming back against them with everything you've got.  I know Vasari can't win early game, but if you can hold them off (which you should be able to) then you can bring out the Vasari's toys, and at that point, you can win.

*I'm not sure which it is, so when I did estimates, I was conservative.  If it is 25 HPS, then you end up with 70 DPS neutralized or nearly 8 illuminators.

I know you're just trying to help, but....

15.

A joke, right?

I don't know what went wrong with your math, but a single vasari repair platform isn't going to hold off 6 illums against 1 frigate.

@Elrosh: I know it can't be upgraded, but thanks for the correction..

@Agent:Okay, so you end up with 47 DPS neutralized.  That is still a nice boost.  I'm just saying that they are worth the investment, and since they are tier 1, that isn't a very big one either...  Most people start off with a military lab anyways, so all you have to do is research and build one.  Neither takes long and you should be good in 1.5-2 minutes.  After that, you can sit back and watch your otherwise wimpy fleet take on a superior one and win.

And did you not read my description?  Assailants are great for ff late game and come out earlier than Illuminators.  Neither of which is going to help you much as I said when explaining this earlier...

@Vasari: That works too..

Like I said, did you not read my description?  And this time I get to add, "again" to the end of that phrase.  I said that neither would really help you much in the second post, and I said that "Assailants are out" in the original one...  Your point?

Yeah, good point Darvin.

I just want to add that you will need MANY repair bays as Vasari to heal your entire fleet. Illuminator sidebeams are almost as lethal as their front beams. And only if you have one or two Skirantra carriers, you will be able to ensure the entire fleet gets enough healing to the ships' hull.