TEC envoy's "Worthy Cause" ability is amazing in Beta 3!

from Sins Forums

Just some thoughts I've had tinkering around with the Beta 3 today. I'm fully aware that not everything's done yet and things need to be balanced out and, hey, most of my observations'll probably be rendered moot in a future beta, but it all deserves some mention.

Worthy Cause, the envoy ability that generates 300 credits per 30 seconds, is now a level-2 diplomacy tech; all a TEC player needs is 2 civilian labs and to research both the envoy ship and the ability. While probably not suitable for smaller skirmishes, the economic benefits of rushing up this tech and building a bunch of envoy ships is very impressive in the medium / long run!

300 credits per 30 seconds is equivalent to 10 credits / second. Consider that, for planets, 40 population = 1 credit/second and that a trade port is ~ 1 to 1.5 credits/second and you can see how incredible this ability is! A fully developed TEC planet has under 400 population; essentially, a single envoy cruiser produces more money! As far as I can tell, the envoy ship can be anywhere in the galaxy, at any planet and it will always produce the same 300 credits per 30 seconds which is somewhat odd since the flavor text of this ability suggests that the envoy ship takes donations from settlers / humans in the system (in a dead asteroid / sun / wormhole place, it's always the same, perhaps modify this ability so you'll want to place them on planets with a high population?).

The Vasari's first envoy cruiser tech "Mutual Threat" is a great economic / military booster (though this only works for your allies / enemies) while the Advent cruiser tech seems focused on culture / allegiance boosting (not quite sure how awesome the allegiance boosting one is yet). However, it seems like, as is, the Vasari and Advent have no extraordinary advantage to quickly rushing up to those cruisers.

Now the disadvantage to this tactic is quite significant; envoy cruiser ships take up 12 ship slots each. However, the "Worthy Cause" money doesn't seem (I could be wrong about this) to be effected by the fleet upkeep tax rate or even allegiance; an economy based substantially on envoy cruisers would be a very stable source of income (provided you can protect your envoys of course, which is made a bit easier thanks to the TEC's high hull points and Invulnerability ability).

Anyway, that's my thoughts. What do you guys reckon? Should the TEC's tech envoy abilities need a few more civilian labs? Or perhaps bring the other Advent and Vasari abilities in line with the TEC such that they have a great advantage in wanting to get those cruisers out quickly.

 

8,086 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I feel someone will be abusing this power of TEC on muiltplayer online.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

I think it should have a result proportional to the population living in the gravwell. Thus it would generate nothing on e.g. electric storms, except if there is a vasari starbase with colonies in it.

If it is not too hard, it should also work differently when activated on a gravwell owned by an at-war enemy. It should work proportionately only to the % on un-allied population. Thus, if a gravwell has 40% allegiance, the skill would be 60% effective. 

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

There seems to be a bug in the calculation when this ability is used.  If you get five envoy cruiser together and pulsing "Good Will' at different intervals, you may get up to 45 credits/sec instead of 25.

 

I do not think this ability should work with Vasari colonies as the humans are slaves?  However, I think the only way to balance this is to give planets some set of cooldown timer as it will be made passable if the cruiser has to go out and collect donations.  Way too overpowered at the moment as I was getting 57 credits per second when the second planet gets colonized.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
We're going to be adjusting the credit income from Worthy Cause soon, as well as making it only usable in enemy or allied gravity wells. It is currently not working as intended.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

LIKETHEWHILRWIND (sorry, but I cant use quotes in google chrome)

 

I think this ability would be absoulty abused in online play. Even if you manage to only allow this ability in Allied worlds and Enemy only, it would still be abusesd quite badly. Maybe limiting the Credits it gives you the closer you are to your homeworld. so the further you are away from your HW, the more credits you get.

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

it shouldn't stack on the same gravwell, i.e. only 1 per gravwell should be effective. 

Should accumulate several gravwells' effects though. 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting LikeTheWhirlwind, reply 4
We're going to be adjusting the credit income from Worthy Cause soon, as well as making it only usable in enemy or allied gravity wells. It is currently not working as intended.
End of LikeTheWhirlwind's quote

 

Awesome! Any chance the Vasari and Advent cruiser tech costs will be brought in line with the TEC's? (i.e. the number of civilian labs needed for those techs reduced)

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Thus it would generate nothing on e.g. electric storms, except if there is a vasari starbase with colonies in it.
End of quote

Seeing as no one in their right minds would pay the exorbitant cost of colony pods (I've done the math, they are effectively never worthwhile) we can ignore that exceptional case.

This ability sounds interesting.  Seems like an envoy now dwarfs trade ports for effect, so if you have the ship slots to spare they're great money-makers.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

So maybe we should have a buff to colony pods as well?

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

The fleet upkeep isn't worth it. Starbases cost no upkeep, and if you place a TEC starbase in every node and 4 in the star node of a moderately sized system, you'll hit 200+ income/sec just from starbases. And then you can still build your uber huge fleet.

But I agree, if the 300 credits bypass fleet upkeep, that's pretty significant. 10 credits / sec without upkeep tax is enormous in the late game when you have 75% upkeep tax.

I think I like how it currently is, because it allows early game people to make quick money. But I would make one (significant) tweak: the money you get from it is subject to fleet upkeep tax. :P

That way, starbases are still king for credits in the long run.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

So maybe we should have a buff to colony pods as well?
End of quote

While we're at it, there's a fair chunk of useless economic techs that need addressing, the most outstanding actually being the Advent resource focus.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Allquixotic, I would go the other route. Make it not make so much money, but have it bypass upkeep. That way it would be very desirable late game.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

So the first hotfix is out on Beta 3. Seems like "Worthy Cause" can now only be used on allied or enemy planets as intended, yay! Of course, if you're playing a locked team game, you'll definitely be shipping those envoys off to your closest allied's homeworld to start the money making.

Against the AI in unlocked games, I'm still able to rush up to "Worthy Cause" and use that well. I simply rush my nearest neighbour with all my envoys, queue the Benny Hill theme song, and have them fly around the planet to avoid enemy fire (or, send a few light frigates or LRMs to keep them safe). With this newfound profit, I'll invest in the new relationship techs in the diplomacy tree with the intent of trying to get a ceasefire with this ally asap. If I get "Settlers" researched (not so much for the ability as the relationship increase it provides per use), I can usually lock down a ceasefire deal pretty darn quick. Of course I'm sacrificing my military power in getting 4 civilian labs set up, but in very large games that's not always a problem in the early game!

I have a suggestion for this ability that may combat this potential behavior. I would say leave the income rate as it is and, instead, split the proceeds of this ability so half goes to you and half goes to the occupant of the allied / enemy planet (i.e. every 30 seconds, this ability gives you 150 credits and your opponent / ally / whatever gets 150 credits). This may need to be balanced due to the double advantages of no upkeep and no tax in trading, but it would definitely put a cap on the personal exploitation of this ability while keeping it quite useful for you and your team mates!

I'd say it'd also be nice to have Worthy Cause scale with the population of the planet. At a Dead Asteroid the total is a tiny (50-100 credits) amount, while more population will provide an exponentially increasing reward. Perhaps a fully populated Terran TEC planet pops up to 400 or 500 credits!

 

Last few issues... For cruiser envoys, would it be possible to:

1. Keep the range of all their planetary abilities the same (it seems kind of weird that Worthy Cause has a larger range than Arbitrate Tariff while Settlers doesn't even need to be in range of the planet at all [actually, I can see players wanting to use Settlers as a quick way to get a planet's pop back up after an attack, so the anywhere-in-the-grav-well range may be ok]).

2. I know I said this above, but the TEC can get all their cruiser techs done in 4 civ labs. Any chance the Vasari or Advent'll come out the same way, or at least not be so far stretched?

3. Fix the Allegiance reading on the Advent's awesome Quell Unrest ability? As it stands now, Quell Unrest increases a planet's allegiance by 5% per use (quite significant!).. However, the panel pop-up when you mouse over that ability reads 0.00 increase. Meh! (yeah this is a bug thingy, meh!)

4. Not sure if this was intentional, but the TEC's Settlers and the Advent's Cultural Assistance provide a relationship boost of 0.10, while the Vasari's relationship increasing ability Mutual Threat only provides a 0.01 boost. I think all of these abilities have a 180 second cooldown, too.

5. Ummm... I love this game. #5 is keep it awesome!