Build Priorities?

Just one quick note: try to avoid calling extractors "mines". We actually do have an explosive mine unit now, so this can cause some confusion.

Your biggest problem is early trade. Unless you have a whole bunch of asteroids sitting in a row, fast-trade is usually not high enough return to be worth your money. If you can set up at least a 4 jump trade route, then you're in business. If you can't, your money is best spent elsewhere. Most of the time I put up civics primarily for ice/volcanic colonization. I won't hestitate to pick up other techs I find useful, but typically I avoid expending too much cash on these things.

1). When should I start military vs. civic research, and what is the most efficient manner for doing so?

The key here is to scout. Don't build your labs right at the start of the game. Find out whether the enemy is close or further away. Typically if the enemy is 5 or fewer jumps away (give or take; if there's a planet with a bajillion militia between the two of you, that might prevent a rush. On the other hand, if it's just a string of neutrals and asteroids that might be a flashpoint that accelerates things) you need to open military, and the only reason to go civic is if there's an ice or volcanic choke point between the two of you. If you're 6 or more jumps away, then civics are a safe bet.

You can usually take a fairly educated guess at your opponent's start position based on where you encounter his scouts. If you first see an enemy scout two jumps away, the enemy homeworld is like 4-5 jumps away. If you don't see an enemy scout after four jumps (presuming you've been scouting in every direction equally) then you can safely presume he's more than 6 jump.

2). What should I emphasize -- more capital ships, more forces, or starbases, and when should I do so?

That's always a balancing act. May as well add technology and economy to the list of things you have to juggle. I find that you typically want to keep your capital ship crew research one level below your fleet size research. The exception is early-game, when many players find that carrier-class capital ships make an overwhelmingly decisive military force and can go crazy with them. I've actually pursued strategies that focus on all of these things to various degrees. I've done starbase spam, fleet spam, capital ship spam, and combinations thereof. It's all about using it in the right place at the right time, and that's a topic (or two or three) in and of itself.

3). When should I deploy trade stations?

You are not in imminent threat of attack; you should be able to protect yourself with your current fleet levels for at least the next ten minutes.
You are capable of building at least a 4-link trade port chain. The more the better.
Rapid colonization or the acquisition of key choke points is either no longer feasible or there is no practical way for you to expend your money to further these goals. (colonization, particularly of key choke points, is a far higher priorty than trade ports)

4). What are the most important economic research options for each faction?

Ice/Volcanic colonization. Hands down.

5). What are the most important military research options for each faction?

Repair bays. Hands down.

Unit prototypes, particularly long range frigates, are important as well. These days with the strength of carrier-class capital ships and light frigates, it's entirely possible to get by with primitive unit types (this is less true for Vasari, but the assailant is easy to unlock so it's not a big deal), so they aren't really mandatory anymore. That said, you can get through the whole game without touching anything other than ice/volcanic civic techs, but good luck doing so without getting higher level military units.

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I thank you, kind sir, for the thorough reply; I look forward to putting these suggestions into play.

Just one quick note: try to avoid calling extractors "mines". We actually do have an explosive mine unit now, so this can cause some confusion.

I actually thought about that while writing the post, then said to myself, "Nah, they know it's the early game, nobody builds mines then." Heh, I should have acted on my perfectionist impulse.

Regarding labs and scouts and foe distance: ingenious! Why didn't I think of that?

I'm used to games like Supreme Commander and Dawn of War 2: you know an attack is coming, and the sooner you're prepared for it, the better. But Sins of a Solar Empire is different -- your opponent could be next door or lightyears away (literally!), and it makes sense to balance your research accordingly. If you have the room, get economy; if not, go military!

I find that you typically want to keep your capital ship crew research one level below your fleet size research.

I know it's only a general rule, and that there are situations where you'll want to do things differently... but DAMN, that makes perfect sense.

# You are not in imminent threat of attack; you should be able to protect yourself with your current fleet levels for at least the next ten minutes.
# You are capable of building at least a 4-link trade port chain. The more the better.
# Rapid colonization or the acquisition of key choke points is either no longer feasible or there is no practical way for you to expend your money to further these goals. (colonization, particularly of key choke points, is a far higher priorty than trade ports)

Okay, so trade comes AFTER the colonizing spree in the early game. Got it.

That said, you can get through the whole game without touching anything other than ice/volcanic civic techs, but good luck doing so without getting higher level military units.

Could you elaborate on this statement? I know why Ice/Volcanic tech is important (no kidding), and I know why repair bays are important, but it always struck me that things like reducing building costs by 30%, increasing build rate, increasing trade vessel payload, and broadcasting culture, are all important. Hell, even the tiny metal/crystal bonuses could be considered important, if only to counteract the upkeep costs of a larger fleet.

Also, if I could be so bold, do you happen to know which military technologies for each faction get the most bang for their buck? For TEC it's armor and ship health; combined with the Hoshikos, your ships just won't die. But what about the Vasari and the Advent?

Lastly, do you have any suggestions regarding defenses? I tend to dislike spending money in defensive units at anything other than a choke point, since that limits the money I could be spending on either my fleet or my economy or my research (or all three). Nevertheless, there are some situations in which it occurs to me that defensive structures could be useful, such as a pair of hangar bays in border systems to deter orbital bombardment units. Or am I totally off my rocker?

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"Nah, they know it's the early game, nobody builds mines then." Heh, I should have acted on my perfectionist impulse.

Aside from a few Advent mine-lovers, it's mostly just Vasari that use these. TEC actually need to build them with construction frigates, which just takes forever and a day to lay the minefields, and the Advent need to expend antimatter on their precious carriers to do it, plus fighters can intercept the minelayer squads. Vasari? Pop! Mines successfully deployed.

Could you elaborate on this statement? I know why Ice/Volcanic tech is important (no kidding), and I know why repair bays are important, but it always struck me that things like reducing building costs by 30%, increasing build rate, increasing trade vessel payload, and broadcasting culture, are all important. Hell, even the tiny metal/crystal bonuses could be considered important, if only to counteract the upkeep costs of a larger fleet.

Those things are all well and good, but their impact is more passive and long-term. The low-lying fruit (1-2 lab techs) are inexpensive and worth your time if you can afford them; the major cost there is the labs, and if you already bought the labs for ice/volcanic colonization, the other goodies are useful. The problem is from level 3 and upward the cost of researching these things starts to take off, and the labs are no longer a sunk cost. In these cases, you're often better off putting all that money into your fleet so you can hurt the enemy now rather than getting these technologies that will pay off in 10 or 20 minutes.

Now, culture is another matter, since it can threaten the enemy in a literal sense. However, it's still not critical in most cases. If your opponent just has one or two culture centers, you can actually negate their effect just with the presence of your capital ships. If you're pumping your cash into military and are actively pushing the enemy back, the culture centers won't have nearly enough impact on you and might not even slow you down. If you get stuck in a stagnant position or a long-term fight, then culture becomes necessary.

Also, if I could be so bold, do you happen to know which military technologies for each faction get the most bang for their buck? For TEC it's armor and ship health; combined with the Hoshikos, your ships just won't die. But what about the Vasari and the Advent?

Health and armor upgrades are always your best bet, simply because they affect every unit type, whereas weapon upgrades only affect some units in your fleet. Advent also gets cheap shield upgrades, so those are useful, but for the other factions they're more expensive and less effective than health and armor. Depending on your strategy, antimatter upgrades can be worthwhile.

Aside from that, there is only one faction-specific must-have tech: phase missiles. This weapon is simply astonishingly powerful for Vasari. Late-game, Vasari phase missiles are easily the most fearsome conventional weapon anyone can employ. This upgrade is also used by surprisingly many high-utility units, including the long range frigate, flak frigate, fighter, bomber, and starbase.

Lastly, do you have any suggestions regarding defenses? I tend to dislike spending money in defensive units at anything other than a choke point, since that limits the money I could be spending on either my fleet or my economy or my research (or all three).

That's the right way to feel; pouring that money into your fleet is the best way to keep yourself well protected. If there's the threat that you'll wipe them out in a major battle, enemies will think twice about a brazen assault.

To deal with the AI's bombard assaults, the best approach is just four turrets. These, when placed right next to the planet (only need 2 for an asteroid) will cover against every angle of assault. You can also use scouts. These units are cheap and really fast and are actually quite effective at search and destroy against lightly armored targets like siege frigates. Hangers are kinda pricey and I generally avoid them unless I can make use of their special abilities (TEC flak turrets, Advent shield bestowal, and Vasari phasic traps, added in Entrenchment).

The best form of defense is proactive intelligence and keeping your fleet deployed effectively.

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I put your suggestions into practice against a hard AI in Diplomacy and had great success (I was trying to win a diplomatic victory, so I deliberately kept my fleet size small: one Sova and a small array [around 8 or so each] of Cobalts, Hoshis, and Javelis). Not only was my economy strong the whole way through, but I started learning the more pressure-sensitive areas of economic development in Sins.

In addition, I did exactly what you just told me to do about defense (before you told me to do it) at the sole choke point on the the map: four turrets, two hangars (mainly for the flak turrets they get, but also as fighter cover for my Sova's 7 bomber flights), two repair bays... and a Starbase. Let's just put it this way: the Advent opponent decided to build up a fleet about five times the size of mine, complete with god knows how many Destra Crusaders, Domina Subjugators, Guardians, light carriers, and flak frigates.

...I destroyed the fleet without a single loss. Of course, by the time the Advent struck, my health research was maxed, and my armor was one tier below maxed. I'd also had the time and resources to get Meson bolt guns on my four turrets, and I, uh, got that upgrade for the Starbase that increases the number of targets Starbases can attack. In a word: boom.

(To quote an Ork from DoW2, having just successfully killed an opponent: "Oi, I feel bigger already!")

Those things are all well and good, but their impact is more passive and long-term. The low-lying fruit (1-2 lab techs) are inexpensive and worth your time if you can afford them; the major cost there is the labs, and if you already bought the labs for ice/volcanic colonization, the other goodies are useful. The problem is from level 3 and upward the cost of researching these things starts to take off, and the labs are no longer a sunk cost. In these cases, you're often better off putting all that money into your fleet so you can hurt the enemy now rather than getting these technologies that will pay off in 10 or 20 minutes.

I'll keep that in mind. In competitive play, the issue is exactly as you described it, but in a leisurely game against the AIs, I suppose it's okay to win on my own terms and research the more long-term upgrades. With experience, I think I'll get a greater sense of which upgrades are absoutely critical and which upgrades aren't.

Aside from that, there is only one faction-specific must-have tech: phase missiles. This weapon is simply astonishingly powerful for Vasari. Late-game, Vasari phase missiles are easily the most fearsome conventional weapon anyone can employ. This upgrade is also used by surprisingly many high-utility units, including the long range frigate, flak frigate, fighter, bomber, and starbase

I actually knew that, surprisingly enough -- I tool around with the Vasari when I'm in the mood, and I've seen enough discussion on the forums to know that phase missiles simply melt things. Though I used to consider the Vasari somewhat difficult to play, that was before I started this thread; I might give them another try. The Vasari are actually my second-favorite race, for three reasons: they're a different kind of underdog, the last remaining banner-bearers of a vanquished empire; they have some interesting strategic possibilities; and they're not the Advent, whom I dislike simply by virtue of the fact that they have lots of synergies running around, extremely effective units, and their superweapon can be deployed from 'way in the back of their empire (to say nothing of synergizing with their already-rampant culture spread).

Thank you very much for your assistance so far. If you have anything to add, feel free. If not, I consider myself well on my way.

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If you have anything to add, feel free.

Don't invite me, or you'll never hear the end of it

You've got things under control it seems.

That said, I wouldn't go so far as to call Vasari the "underdogs" of the current version. A little weak in the early game perhaps, but if you let them go late game (especially if your opponent is using a lockdown/minelayer strategy... those are particularly vicious) they're anything but. Let's just say Advent is going to need every one of those synergies, and TEC... good luck buddy, be sure to make LOTS of hoshikos...

But of course, TEC is pretty well gimped in any role except backup late game. Great damage, great tanking ability, great economy, superb healing, but no fricken synergies, they're stuck throwing a strategy of attrition at fully mature Advent battleballs and well-equipped lockdown/minelayer fleets. You need to be hot stuff to win as TEC if it goes late game...

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Feel free to extrapolate all you want -- I certainly won't stop you.

That said, I wouldn't go so far as to call Vasari the "underdogs" of the current version.

I meant strictly from a lore perspective. I mean, seriously: they had an empire -- though oiled by the blood of slaves, it was still an achievement of sorts. They screwed up and developed (released?) something they shouldn't have, and now they're on the run. Their pride and traditions are at war with the fact that these upstart humans have fought them to a standstill. They're backed into a corner and perhaps even forced to question their basic assumptions about themselves and admit they're not as hot as they thought they were.

But of course, TEC is pretty well gimped in any role except backup late game. Great damage, great tanking ability, great economy, superb healing, but no fricken synergies, they're stuck throwing a strategy of attrition at fully mature Advent battleballs and well-equipped lockdown/minelayer fleets. You need to be hot stuff to win as TEC if it goes late game...

I was about to argue that they have ONE synergy: Repair Bots + Demo Bots + great armor = next to no damage. Of course, this isn't really a synergy -- it's one unit that works well in concert with the TEC's basic trait of being well armored. And Hoshikos make fairly easy targets. As far as synergy goes, it's pretty well counterable. On the other hand, I've never lost a capital ship yet because of this combination.

Seriously, now that I think about it, the TEC has no stunning synergies at all; and, Hoshikos and Kodiaks aside, their units don't really shine the same way units belonging to other factions do.

EDIT: Actually, there is one other synergy they have: hangar bays w/ flak cannons plus gauss turrets and repair bays. This gives them a fairly robust defensive matrix: the flak hangars provide fighter cover against any incoming squadrons of bombers whilst the fighters from the hangars take out either bombardment frigates or LRFs; the turrets take out anything else. Like I said, this is fairly robust; though flak frigates will break it (by taking out the fighters, which leaves the LRFs free to destroy the turrets), it works well as a stopgap in the early game.

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Seriously, now that I think about it, the TEC has no stunning synergies at all

Dunvo + anything that uses AM. Flux Field is your friend as TEC.

TEC is one of the most flexable fleet wise. Advent usually you have to keep your fleet in one large battleball. Vasari while have awesome mobility and flexablility they will buckle under strong pressure.

TEC you can split your fleets easier. And during total slug fest they can pressure almost as hard as a Advent Battleball. Though this is also a weakness.

If your gonna go TEC I can not stress enough using Dunvos. There was a topic not to long ago a new player was having trouble with TEC, couldnt figure out their strenghts and such. IMHO Dunvos are TEC ace in the hole. If you use them to their full poential they can and will turn battles in your favor.

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And Hoshikos make fairly easy targets. As far as synergy goes, it's pretty well counterable.

Due to their low cost, it's pretty well impossible to knock a significant number of hoshikos out of the enemy fleet, but if they're spamming both their abilities antimatter is going to be a significant issue.

On the other hand, I've never lost a capital ship yet because of this combination.

Early game TEC are great for keeping capital ships alive, and at any stage of the game the AI rarely threatens your capital ships seriously. Online late game... hooo boy, get ready to lose some caps, especially as TEC.

Actually, there is one other synergy they have: hangar bays w/ flak cannons plus gauss turrets and repair bays.

At the end of the day, any faction can get similar results with a balanced fleet backed up by repair bays. While I have done a bit of experimentation with TEC turret farming (the key is in bumping their range with targeting uplink on the Akkan), it's a pretty niche strategy.

Dunov + anything that uses AM. Flux Field is your friend as TEC.

Granted, but getting flux field is easier said than done, and keeping it alive in the late game is similarly difficult. I have trouble using TEC capital ships later on because once you've got hundreds of units focus firing them there's just nothing to keep them alive. Vasari can lockdown, Advent can battleball, TEC are stuck hoping they can stack enough healing to keep their caps alive. That's great early on, but later on it just doesn't cut it unless you've got enough forces to steamroll the enemy, which is pretty much what TEC has to do to win anyways.

Vasari while have awesome mobility and flexablility they will buckle under strong pressure.

I used to adhere to this, but ever since the lockdown/minelayer strategy came out, I've been slowly dropping that dogma. These days, I think a well-played Vasari can go head-to-head with a battleball and win. If he's got a kostura, I'd got so far as to say it's advantage Vasari in a straight fight with the battleball.

IMHO Dunvos are TEC ace in the hole. If you use them to their full poential they can and will turn battles in your favor.

Problem is, Dunovs suck until they start to reach higher levels, and getting them there is a trial. TEC pretty much has to lead Sova and Akkan in the early game, and it's really hard to actually get a Dunov in play and raise it to those higher levels where it shines. The Kol has the same problem; just not enough bang for your buck till it hits level 5 or 6. That's why I stick with the Sova/Akkan/Marza combination most of the time.

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Problem is, Dunovs suck until they start to reach higher levels, and getting them there is a trial.

I'll agree with everything you said. And yes getting Dunovs higher lvl takes some work. I know its near impossible in PvP. But with the AI I have no trouble getting many Dunvos to lvl 6+. Its usually a bad choice for your starter Cap. Then again I usually play Distant Stars, where Caps are stronger. 1 Kol, 1 Akkan, and 3+ Dunvos is all I ever use when playing the AI. Again its my play style. I prefer more frigates. And with the AI, the first thing you send it is their primary target. Send some Flak in first, then your caps and other ships. Sniper his Caps with your LRM. Call it a day.

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I actually used to use the Akkan as my first cap, but lately I've started using the Sova, and OMG, I don't think I can go back. The Sova can counter almost everything (and I do mean everything!) in the early gravity wells with frightening ease: for the Cobalts, it uses missile platforms; for the siege frigates and LRFs, it uses fighters; for the Kodiaks, it uses bombers. The Garda's aren't really a problem either: you just destroy the LRFs or Kodiaks right away (siege frigates are never a priority target unless you're using an Akkan, in which case you can actually kill them first and then colonize during the fight--the locals will stay focused on the first target that enters the system UNLESS a priority target [colony frigate or something against which they have a DPS advantage] enter subsequently. That's why I take out the LRFs first, so I can bring in my Cobalts without fear of the LRFs switching targets to something they're good against) and then dock your fighters; he can handle the rest himself with the missile platform. Or just bring in Cobalts to DPS down the Gardas double-quick. As if all that wasn't good enough, the Sova has great force projection capability. I think I'm in love.

The reason for the above paragraph was to set up the following: I've actually had more success with Sova/Akkan-Kol-Dunovs than I have with Sova/Akkan-Dunov-Marza, the reason being that Kols do roughly equivalent DPS to the Marza and they're much more useful in a fight. For one thing, they get fighters. Adaptive Force Field is great in general but spectacular against the Vasari; combined with Dunovs, Cielos, and Hoshis the damn thing just WON'T DIE. In addition, it gets Flak Burst, which can absolutely ravage a fighter cluster. I'm not so sure about Finest Hour; I've never seen it turn the tide of a battle before.

But TEC has two primary weaknesses:

1). They have no counter to lockdown-crowd control strategies, and no real crowd control of their own except for Demo Bots.

2). Missile Barrage aside, they have no real splash damage capabilities: they can't really dish out damage against multiple targets. Though they do fantastic single-target DPS, they're incapable of taking out large fleets with anything less than a starbase.

EDIT: The only thing I can really think of is to spam Cobalts. I know, it sounds insane, especially with all those LRFs out there, but hear me out. With your Sova, lock and load nothing but fighters. If you meet an enemy fleet, tell all your fighters to just blast the bejesus out of any LRFs you see; two passes should be enough to kill one, and if you dance around for a while, you should be fine (UNLESS THEY HAVE A HALCYON!). Provided you've done any armor research, your Hoshis (and Cielos, if present) will keep your Cobalts alive for a fairly long period of time, even against LRFs. In the meantime, Sabotage Reactor SHOULD be enough to keep Advent battle balls (also, can't you just, like, move out of their way and engage at anbother location when the shield sphere activates?) and Vasari casters on lockdown. This won't work so well against the Vasari, though -- if they have a Marauder, you won't be able to run; same with a Space Egg. Fortunately, your armor advantage means that you shouldn't have too much of a problem with Phase Missiles, if you've got Hoshis around. Bear in mind that this is all theorycraft, but I'd like to try pumping out 2-3 Cobalts for every heavy cruiser, backed by an equivalent number of Hoshis and Cielos.

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I actually used to use the Akkan as my first cap, but lately I've started using the Sova, and OMG, I don't think I can go back... I think I'm in love.

The advantage of the Akkan is purely economical. You move in, colonize the planet, build turrets, and move on. Rapid colonization without even stopping to fight, very vicious strategy. That said, Sova is simply awesome in a more military oriented-start. All the carrier-class capital ships are.

In multiplayer these days, if you're on the front line you're pretty well assured your enemy is getting a carrier-class capital ship, so you'd better do the same. That said, I've been finding the Kortul to be an effective countermeasure to the Halcyon, but you have to know the guy next to you is Advent. Back in 1.181 it was quite possible than three quarters of the enemy team was Advent, but now that the illuminator bug is fixed that phenomenon is dying.

Adaptive Force Field is great in general but spectacular against the Vasari; combined with Dunovs, Cielos, and Hoshis the damn thing just WON'T DIE.

Singleplayer yes, multiplayer no. When the AI is pounding your capital ships lightly, you can easily heal up the damage. If a player suddenly turns 50 LRM's to focus on your Kol... even with adaptive shields and constant healing you only have 20 or 30 seconds to live. Not fun if that's a capital ship you've been carefully raising.

The only thing I can really think of is to spam Cobalts.

Perfectly viable early game; Advent does it all the time with disciples and the Halcyon. Once the fleets get larger, though, your fighters can't whittle down the enemy LRF nearly fast enough, or worse yet the enemy will just have a big chunk of flak defending them.

also, can't you just, like, move out of their way and engage at anbother location when the shield sphere activates?

The problem with this is the illuminators. If you try to turn around, the illuminators get to rip your fleet up with sidebeams. Trying to "dance" around illuminators or starbases is a losing proposition.

Saboutage Reactor is a great way to deal with guardians if they don't have repulse. If they do have repulse (it's only 1 lab above saboutage...) they can just push your cobalts away. Using saboutage reactor is definitely your best bet against support cruiser strategies, including other TEC players with hoshikos, but the problem is that if there's a big chunk of LRF, light frigates just won't come out ahead.

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....wow, that's really kinda depressing.

Is there any GOOD news? Does the TEC have any advantages besides armor and besides being excellent in a "support role" late game? Because if they have no non-support advantages, it kinda sucks to be them 1v1.

I mean, from what you've described to me, all an Advent player has to do is choose the right pair of capital ships and then spam Illuminators, Guardians, and whatever else they need. By comparison, a Vasari player need only choose the Space Egg and/or Something Better and watch the fun as your Assailants and space mines and Subverters rip things to pieces.

Does the TEC have any killer strategies like that? Pretty please?

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Double post >.<

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The advantage of the Akkan is purely economical. You move in, colonize the planet, build turrets, and move on. Rapid colonization without even stopping to fight, very vicious strategy.

Wait...that only works on roids and lightly defended planets, right? In particular only those with only 1-2 siege frigates.

And this lockdown/mine-layer strat...this is using Subverters and a Minelayer right over the fleet you locked down? Anything else to it?

You know what TEC need? They need Rapid Manufacturing to affect the construction speed of a Starbase and have it also work in an enemy/neutral grav well. It would make sense reading the ability description.

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....wow, that's really kinda depressing.

As I said originally, TEC is kinda underpowered later on. You gotta lean on your good healing and generally cost-efficient forces to out-muscle the enemy. In a straight fight, your caps are super vulnerable. The flip-side is that in many of these late game battles, leveling up a capital ship isn't that hard. The trick is to keep it alive.

Because if they have no non-support advantages, it kinda sucks to be them 1v1.

I repeat what I said back in reply #5: "You need to be hot stuff to win as TEC if it goes late game..."

TEC is awesome early on because of hoshikos and cost-effective units, but as the other factions bring out their synergy TEC just falls behind and you need to make up for that by outplaying the enemy and leaning on your generally more cost-effective units. Most of the time when I am dominating the late game as TEC, it's because I'm carrying an advantage from early game.

Does the TEC have any killer strategies like that? Pretty please?

Level 6 Akkan with Armistice is perhaps TEC's only answer to the higher-level support cruisers of the other factions (of course, the unfairness of needing a level 6 capital ship to match upgraded cruisers should be obvious). Armistice provides total invulnerability to the fleet around the Akkan, enabling you to cancel out virtually any ability, and redeploy or retreat with ease. This also renders you immune to special abilities, including phase jump inhibitors and starbase phase disruption (free retreats).

Wait...that only works on roids and lightly defended planets, right? In particular only those with only 1-2 siege frigates.

Most planets do have 1-2 siege frigates. Those with 3 or more siege frigates are still vulnerable if they have few LRF and heavies. Planets with heavy militia (3+ siege and many LRF and heavies) are actually uncommon and if you scout early you can just colonize around them and grab them later.

And this lockdown/mine-layer strat...this is using Subverters and a Minelayer right over the fleet you locked down? Anything else to it?

Aside from the timing and placement (which I'm still working on perfecting, myself), not really. You can also substitute the subverters for a Kostura, which is even more effective. If the enemy has lots of strike craft, you may need to jam weapons, too.

They need Rapid Manufacturing to affect the construction speed of a Starbase and have it also work in an enemy/neutral grav well.

While that would certainly be the kind of boost the Sova needs (rapid manufacturing is too niche right now) it would probably be too much, particularly if combined with Armistice. I could probably warp in, turn on Armistice, build the starbase, and it would be complete before you could actually attack it. That's moving into "bullshit" territory, although to be fair I personally think lockdown/minelayer tactics are BS in serious need of nerfing. Hard to pull off at very least, but it takes out your entire fleet in seconds if successful...

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Level 6 Akkan with Armistice is perhaps TEC's only answer to the higher-level support cruisers of the other factions (of course, the unfairness of needing a level 6 capital ship to match upgraded cruisers should be obvious). Armistice provides total invulnerability to the fleet around the Akkan, enabling you to cancel out virtually any ability, and redeploy or retreat with ease. This also renders you immune to special abilities, including phase jump inhibitors and starbase phase disruption (free retreats).

Yes, with Armistice you can flee or cancel their order of battle for a minute, but you still have to face them eventually. By the time a minute passes, all their cooldowns will have reset, and their antimatter will have recharged. If you choose to flee, they can follow. Armistice is not a counter; it gives you a breather.

On the subject of the TEC...

They just released the second and final Sins of a Solar Empire expansion without any substantive changes to the TEC. Does this not mean that the TEC are, well, finished (in terms of being improved as a faction)? That you must either triumph in the early game or perish, and that the developers want it to be that way? If so, that's a depressing thought.

If I had to improve the TEC late game, I'd do it through the civilian tech trees, particularly economics, to act both as an incentive to pursue economic research and because that's what the TEC seems to be good at. They're not warriors, according to the lore; they're re-learning warfare after a thousand years of peace, whereas they're facing off against two factions that seem to thrive on war: one of them has a tradition of conquest that's over ten thousand years old, and the other honed itself for vengeance. It only makes sense that the TEC's military units would be designed to hold the line while economics do the work. I'm not talking about anything as simple as Embargo, or being able to get money whenever your opponent spends it, or even something as sporadic as rebel uprisings. I'm talking about a button you can press to literally shut down every factory in an empire (a great replacement for "Foreign Sabotage"), give them -50% income (call the ability "Red Tape"), stop every trade ship in its tracks for one minute ("Inspection"), or even sporadically blow up their metal/crystal extractors or trade stations/refineries (that would be a good replacement for "Rebel Uprising"). Now that I think about it, it would be really awesome if the TEC had an ability that caused factories to take damage every time they produced a ship.

If they did THAT, well... the Advent may have a battle ball, the Vasari may have lockdown and mines, but for every ship you destroy, that's one that they might have severe difficulty replacing because you're playing havoc with their economy... whereas your economy will not only be going strong, but your natural endurance will allow you to steamroll the bad guys while they have to fight for individual reinforcements.

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The second expansion appears to have done for Insurgency what the first did to Novaliths... however we are working on the Dimensional Cascades project. It's a new style of victory, like the Wonder in AoE2, where you have all the labs of both types, and possibly one or more artifacts, you can build a ultra-deadly Monolith that takes vast resources and ages to build, but is an instant win if completed. No more jokes in the Elite Warlords Club about 'ultimate' techs that end up feeding the enemy experience, like the pirates when they were crap... unless the Insurgency ships get 10000 health 200 damage and 40 armour as well? Or would that be stupid?

The Dimensional Cascades are something that we've been waiting for, for a long time. They cascade, dimensionally. Be assured of victory comrade!*

*If your TEC morale was improved by this message please check the box provided, thank you.

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Quoting DesConnor,

reply 17

The second expansion appears to have done for Insurgency what the first did to Novaliths... however we are working on the Dimensional Cascades project. It's a new style of victory, like the Wonder in AoE2, where you have all the labs of both types, and possibly one or more artifacts, you can build a ultra-deadly Monolith that takes vast resources and ages to build, but is an instant win if completed. No more jokes in the Elite Warlords Club about 'ultimate' techs that end up feeding the enemy experience, like the pirates when they were crap... unless the Insurgency ships get 10000 health 200 damage and 40 armour as well? Or would that be stupid?

The Dimensional Cascades are something that we've been waiting for, for a long time. They cascade, dimensionally. Be assured of victory comrade!*

*If your TEC morale was improved by this message please check the box provided, thank you.

..........................who are you? Really? (And don't say "I'm Batman.")

What's this Dimensional Cascades project of which you speak? Is it a mod? If so, I think the TEC needs rather more than a mod, if Darvin is correct (and he probably is -- he sounds like he knows his stuff).

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Yes, with Armistice you can flee or cancel their order of battle for a minute, but you still have to face them eventually. By the time a minute passes, all their cooldowns will have reset, and their antimatter will have recharged. If you choose to flee, they can follow. Armistice is not a counter; it gives you a breather.

If they follow you, they are now fighting on your territory. TEC has the best Repair Bays and your Starbase can support your fleet with heals and antimatter regen. Furthermore, you will be fighting in your culture which gives you more antimatter regen. The Akkan targetting uplink will give your Starbase/Turrets a substantial range boost. It will also boost accuracy of your flak to shoot down strikecraft. Your Long Range Frigates also have the longest range of the three factions and with a boost from the Akkan and the missle range tech (very late game), it has a very substantial range...make them come to you. With so much antimatter regen, your Hoshikos can constantly heal and demo bot, and your Cielos can spam focus fire and embolden (though don't build more of these than you can micro). Bait them to attack you, they have a lot harder time retreating due to Phase Jump Inhibitors and running from a TEC Starbase can mean 50% hull dmg instead of the usual 30%. Bottom line is to make sure your capital ships don't die (retreat them when you see them being focused on)...get 3 Kols to be able to Flak Burst down all strikecraft...a couple Dunovs with Shield Restore...hang around the edge of the grav well. Just because TEC are built to play a game of attrition doesn't mean to play like the AI. Oh, and watch out for those pesky Vasari Kosturas Cannons.

Oh yeah, a little more information about Armistice. It only affects things within range of that ability and that means your strikecraft and their strikecraft or anything that steps out of range is free to shoot and be shot at.

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If they follow you, they are now fighting on your territory. TEC has the best Repair Bays and your Starbase can support your fleet with heals and antimatter regen. Furthermore, you will be fighting in your culture which gives you more antimatter regen.

All of this does nothing to prevent them from laying mines over your fleet, locking you down, or knocking you across the gravity well. Even with a starbase at your back, that's gonna hurt. Also, they can just go around the starbase, even with an Akkan giving it extra range.

The Akkan targetting uplink will give your Starbase/Turrets a substantial range boost. It will also boost accuracy of your flak to shoot down strikecraft.

These are, once again, comparatively minor advantages. You could take out the fighters/bombers just as easily with fighters of your own (from, say, a Sova carrier).

Your Long Range Frigates also have the longest range of the three factions and with a boost from the Akkan and the missle range tech (very late game), it has a very substantial range...make them come to you.

They also do the worst damage. Given the slow flight time of missiles, this means that by the time the bad guys meander into range, the extra damage your LRFs have done will be offset by the increased damage from the other factions.

With so much antimatter regen, your Hoshikos can constantly heal and demo bot, and your Cielos can spam focus fire and embolden (though don't build more of these than you can micro).

Or just build a metric truckload of them, autocast, and hope for the best. But remember: if your forces are in a minefield, locked down, or otherwise scattered across the gravity well, you won't be able to buff them up with Hoshis and Cielos. Your formation will be broken and you'll be easy pickings.

Bottom line is to make sure your capital ships don't die (retreat them when you see them being focused on)...get 3 Kols to be able to Flak Burst down all strikecraft...a couple Dunovs with Shield Restore...hang around the edge of the grav well. Just because TEC are built to play a game of attrition doesn't mean to play like the AI. Oh, and watch out for those pesky Vasari Kosturas Cannons.

Given what I've seen of the TEC versus other factions, the best bet is to just never let the enemy get close, period. The only really viable means of doing that would be to field nothing but Sovas, Hoshis, Gardas, and carriers.

I still think TEC should get some hard core economic warfare techniques. >.<

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I still think TEC should get some hard core economic warfare techniques. >.<

They do, but they come so late in the game that the other factions are positively insane by this point. As I said, in terms of economic power and cost per performance TEC units are very competitive if not superior to the other factions. The problem is, they have almost nothing as far as fleet support from capital ships and cruisers goes.

Also, want a good use for the Akkan armistice? Rig a starbase to blow, and move your fleet to the far side (away from the enemy fleet). Have an Akkan approach just enough so that your units are within armistice range, but the starbase is not. Blow the starbase. All your units survive, enemy fleet gets toasted. Even if an enemy thinks you're moving your fleet away to blow the starbase, they won't have enough time to get out themselves if you time this right.

I used to say that smart enemies just won't get into range of a TEC starbase, but I've played some very skilled players that have fallen for kamikaze starbase antics. I just don't even get close to a TEC starbase if I think it might be rigged to blow.

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Darvin, I say this with all due respect, but I'm new enough to this game that the very idea of intentionally blowing up one of your own starbases boggles my mind I mean, if we build them just to blow them up, why don't they give us gigantic cloakable space mines instead?

As for the TEC's economic warfare techniques, they rely on either being inside TEC culture (good luck with that against the Advent!) or they simply feed the bad guys free experience. Oh, sure, they can place insurgent units inside undefended gravity wells, but it's not as though they're a threat worth diverting their forces for. By the time they could destroy anything, the Advent or Vasari fleet can steamroll the TEC fleet, then meander back to their base.

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Insurgency has been lack luster from the start. They should be pirate units now IMHO. Since they will attack your fleets anyhow. *shrugs*

Dont forget the faster construction! End game, the ability to combine that with a lvl 6 Sova is crazy.

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

+629

Quoting Frostflare,

reply 22

Darvin, I say this with all due respect, but I'm new enough to this game that the very idea of intentionally blowing up one of your own starbases boggles my mind I mean, if we build them just to blow them up, why don't they give us gigantic cloakable space mines instead?

As for the TEC's economic warfare techniques, they rely on either being inside TEC culture (good luck with that against the Advent!) or they simply feed the bad guys free experience. Oh, sure, they can place insurgent units inside undefended gravity wells, but it's not as though they're a threat worth diverting their forces for. By the time they could destroy anything, the Advent or Vasari fleet can steamroll the TEC fleet, then meander back to their base.

Why not, if you are going to lose the starbase anyways, why not intentionally blow it up if it takes out every frigate in the enemy's fleet (and probably a few capital ships)? You're right that the suicide bomber technique is usually done with cheaper units, but no suicide bomber can carry quite as many explosives as a starbase can.

Also, 50% reduced build times and earning credits from what your enemies buy should be nothing to scoff at. Add a lvl 6 Sova and Starbase with fully upgraded unit production upgrades and you can replece your loses insanely quickly. Is not suffering those loses in the first place better, probably, but it is something. And as said before, ideally you should already be winning the game by the time anyone gets 5 military labs.

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Darvin, I say this with all due respect, but I'm new enough to this game that the very idea of intentionally blowing up one of your own starbases boggles my mind

The loss of the starbase is a terrible blow, but if you can take out the entire enemy fleet with one stone (heck, I once saw three players lose their fleets because they all crowded around one enemy starbase) that's well worth it. I have on many occasions seen entire games decided by a single starbase that exploded. There's very little in the game capable of that much destruction, and the starbase can do it instantly.

One of the great things about rigging a starbase to blow is that you can always use it a gigantic super-mine if you want, but you can also leave it as a perfectly operational starbase if you don't. And hey, if the enemy has such a massive fleet that they're going to steamroll it anyways, what do you have to lose?

As for the TEC's economic warfare techniques, they rely on either being inside TEC culture (good luck with that against the Advent!) or they simply feed the bad guys free experience.

Insurgency sucks, I'll agree (though I've heard it was improved in Diplomacy). I was more speaking about Pervasive Economy, which is certainly the most powerful economic tech in the game. Getting there isn't quite so easy, however.

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Build Priorities?

Kinda like "build orders" in a more conventional game