I'm still trying to figure out how the AI had so many resources?  I had a lot of planets maxxed out on pop and a ton of trade stations.  I figured a waiting game would benefit me.

Oh, that was simple.   The AI built a large trade port network while you were replacing your fleet after that disaster at Novalis (seriously, if the AI hadn't started goofing off, it could have killed you right then and there).  For the next hour and a half it just kept on saving up cash rather than building a powerful military.  Then, near the end of the game, it suddenly started spending that massive bank account it had built up.  Because it had higher tech-level units than you, it totally mopped the floor with you.

Anyways, I did a full analysis of your replay, and here's my opinions:

Early Colonization:

1)  You waited too long to build your capital ship factory, and as a result took way too long to get your first few planets colonized. 

2)  You needed to build your two civic labs immediately at the start of the game given your situation (by the way, your start location was very unfavourable) in order to colonize the volcanic planet.  Buying the military lab was a huge mistake, seeing as you didn't actually need it until much later, and had to purchase an expensive logistic upgrade on your homeworld as a result.

3)  You shouldn't have left your capital ship behind after finishing the militia.  Even though you had to wait for the upgrade, you'd have been better off moving forward and colonizing other planets, and then having a colony frigate colonize the volcanic afterwards.

A capital ship sitting idle in the early game is one of the worst mistakes you can make.  You lost a whole bunch of disciples because your capital ship wasn't there to support them, and that was worth way more than the discount you get from the progenitor.

4) You should have upgraded one of your existing abilities rather than adding to malice.  With very few exceptions, capital ships that specialize in two abilities are much stronger than capital ships that try to juggle all three. This is particularly true when all three abilities use antimatter, which will just drain the capital ship dry.

Adding a second rank to shield regeneration is preferable for a combat-oriented progenitor.  Alternately because you were so early in the game, a second rank in colonize for additional discount would have worked well.

5) You skipped an asteroid without colonizing it, and only captured it much later in the game.  This is a massive mistake; asteroids are your top priority for colonization in the early-game because their payback time is significantly lower than a full-sized planet.

6) You upgraded your fleet supply too early before you could adequately use it, and in fact were below 100 command much of the time. 

The only reason to buy more fleet supply this early in the game is to build a second force of units to colonize in a separate direction or to attack the enemy.

7) Colonizing that "dead-end" volcanic was probably a bad idea.  There was no way the enemy could get back there to colonize the planet, so you would be free to colonize later in the game.  If you hadn't taken this detour and instead headed straight towards the enemy, you could have captured the terran planet before the AI even arrived.

8) Leaving all your abilities on autocast wasn't a good idea.  This tends to drain your antimatter and leaves nothing for when it really counts... like in the coming battle over the terran planet Novalis.  A better idea is to treat your capital ship's antimatter like any resource and budget it.

Your early colonization wasn't bad, and at very least you were trying to maintain a pace.  However, the combined delays of the harmony labs and the capital ship were significant problems.  All things said, I'm mostly nit-picking here, but a few nitpicks here and there can add up to a significant advantage.



First Blood: Battle for Novalis

1) You were outgunned in this battle.  Paying attention to who is winning and taking appropriate action is very important.  Attacking the enemy capital ship was a big mistake here.  The AI got away with no casualties as a result while you lost your entire fleet.

2) You could have colonized the planet with your capital ship had you saved your antimatter rather than using it on malice.  Your damage output was too low, at any rate, to get much usefulness out of that ability.

3) You waited WAY WAY WAY too long to retreat.  You should have gotten out of there before losing the majority of your forces.  Instead you waited until you'd lost all your units and your capital ship was nearly destroyed.  If the AI hadn't broken pursuit for some inexplicable reason, you'd have lost your capital ship, too.

4) You needed to have been researching repair platforms.  Getting your units, particularly capital ships, back in fighting shape after major battles is very important.  Because of this, your capital ship was out of commission for way too long and you were stuck doing nothing while the AI was growing more powerful.

All things said, that battle was a catastrophic defeat.  If the AI had pressed its advantage at the time, you'd have been defeated.  You only got a comeback because the AI was pulling its punches over the course of the next hour. 


Comeback Time

1) You left your front-line asteroid defenseless.  Even though the AI made clear it wasn't going to attack you right away, you don't leave your front line defenseless. Once again, you only kept this asteroid because the AI suddenly decided to leave when one more round of bombardment would have finished it.

On maps like this, you either make two fleets to cover both your flanks, or you attack so aggressively that there's need to defend at all, since the enemy won't be able to spare anything to counter-attack.  After your big defeat, that isn't viable, so two fleets becomes necessary.  You were lucky that you got away with this until later in the game, given that the AI had a wonderful defensive position where it could defend both fronts with one fleet.

2) When attacking the volcanic planet Arrhenius, you made two mistakes, one relatively minor and one absolutely enormous.  The first mistake was that you weren't bombarding with both capital ships.  The moment the AI retreated its fleet, you should have started bombardment with both of them.

The second mistake, and by far the greater, was that you parked your progenitor next to an extractor with malice left on autocast.  The progenitor kept using malice on the extractor, draining its antimatter reserves dry for no benefit whatsoever.

3) I've already said that hangers are a bad investment, but this was a REALLY bad time to be building them.  You had the AI on the run and you should have been investing in attacking units.  A third capital ship or some carriers would have been awesome here.

4) I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but in the battle of Chromios your capital ships used up all their antimatter against a few orbital structures and had nothing left for the big fleet battle that followed.  At very least toggle autocast off and on so antimatter is preserved for the battles that count and doesn't get depleted in the little fights in between.

5) You should have retreated your Halcyon rather than let it sit there and take critical levels of damage.  If you'd built a repair platform in the previous gravity well, it could be repaired and back in the action before long.  Fortunately the battle ended before that become a problem, but had the enemy gotten reinforcements you would have lost your Halcyon.

6) Moving your capital wasn't a bad idea given the map layout (I personally would have gone for trade rather than spending money on moving my capital, but that's just me), but the asteroid was a poor choice.  Good location, but asteroids do not make good homeworlds since they give a lower tax bonus.  Generally stick to desert and terran planets.  Talthybius would probably be an ideal location for a capital.

7) When the AI was attacking your asteroid in force, you should have counter-attacked.  Your main force was too far away to defend the asteroid, so your only response was to attack the AI's other flank. 

8) After taking the asteroid Illyria, you got highly complacent and started being defensive even though you needed to be highly aggressive in your current situation.  This was only made worse by the fact that you weren't scouting and had no up-to-date intel on the AI's defensive state.


Your recovery here was probably some of your best playing in the game.  Unfortunately, you only got away with it because the AI was pulling its punches.  Reviewing the AI's situation at this point in the game, it had tens of thousands of credits that it wasn't spending, access to higher level technology that it wasn't using, and a large fleet that it never consolidated into a single fighting force.  The moment you stopped attacking and allowed it to regroup, it became far stronger.

The AI had a powerful economy twice as good as your's by this point in the game, around 30 credits per second after upkeep.  You were around 18 credits per second after upkeep, by comparison.  You had the potential to be better due to a larger empire, but you needed to build the infrastructure to capitalize on that.  The AI also had tens of thousands of credits saved up.  All that money would go into pounding you later in the game.


Stalemate and Grinding (end-game)

1) As I've already mentioned, you grew too complacent and weren't aggressive enough.  As a result, the AI was picking its fights and was attacking your weaker flank.  You needed to be acting more aggressive.

2) You increased your fleet capacity too high, and your underdeveloped economy couldn't support it.  You had no cash left over to build up more economic infrastructure (like more trade ports) which only put you deeper in the hole.  For a significant portion of the time, you weren't even using this extra fleet capacity! 

3) your enemy fleet had a huge amount of carriers.  You needed more anti-strike craft in the form of defense vessels, carriers with fighters, or halcyon carriers with telekinetic push ability.  Even a big swarm of disciples to hunt down and kill the carriers themselves would have worked well.  More repair bays would have been very helpful as well, since the ones you had were over-burdened and ran out of antimatter very quickly.

4) losing that level 7 progenitor at Novalis was huge.  You should have kept your forces together and shouldn't have left a small fraction of your fleet (particularly with that valuable high level capital ship) to get hammered.

5) However, losing that first Progenitor is NOTHING compared to losing the second.  You could have used the special ressurrection ability to create a new Progenitor and raise it to level 7 instantly, but losing your second progenitor precluded this.

This really mirrors the first battle of Novalis.  You should have been paying attention to who was winning and then acted accordingly.  Your opponent was winning, you needed to be getting out of there.  By the time you retreated, it was FAR too late to save your fleet.

6) Your opponent was massing heavy cruisers, and these completely decimate illuminators.  You had plenty of time to see this coming, but you never added a new unit to your fleet. 

It's all downhill from here.  You made a huge screwup at the beginning, and then you repeated the exact same screwup towards the end.  That was your main problem.  That fleet didn't jump out of nowhere.  It actually came from the very early game.  Because of your massive loss at Novalis, the AI could spend a lot more money on its economy and still stay competitive.  For some reason, it never put that windfall to use until the very end of the game, so it appeared to come out of nowhere.  In fact, the AI was just pulling its punches for the past two hours so when it finally started hitting with full strength it didn't make sense.

Once again, I'd recommend watching some of the replays provided.  They might give you some idea of how to run a battle.  Pay close attention to the Iconus Guardian unit that I employ, it works very well when you have a Progenitor and an illuminator-based fleet.  It also has a "repulse" ability that pushes powerful units like heavy cruisers out of range.

Thanks again Darvin.  Man this game has a lot of details to absorb for a noob.  Would have been nice if there was a campaign to ease you into some of this stuff instead of a very basic tutorial and then all this.

Yes it does, and we've barely scratched the surface with what's described in this thread.  This game is really awesome once you get to some of the deeper strategy.  Particularly in multiplayer, the game can become a match of cat and mouse, where both players are probing for a weakness and trying to pounce when they get any advantage. 

As I've said before, the game has serious learning curve issues.  Once you conquer the learning curve it's one of the best games you'll ever play, but getting there is a challenge if you're not already very experienced with RTS games.

Yeah, I haven't played an RTS in awhile.  I used to play the Red Alerts, Real War, and of course the old Warcraft.  I never had a problem with them though.  I used to prolong the games and toy with the AI.

I got a sense that this was the case.  I was a C&C and Warcraft player myself (as well as Age of Empires).  The difference in those games was that resources were finite.  A gold mine only had so much to give before it collapsed.  As a result, if you were sitting on a sufficient lump of the map's total resources you could wait for the AI to come to you.  Sooner or later its resources would deplete and its ability to keep building units would be compromised.  This is not true in Sins, resources will never deplete.  This means that you have to eventually find a point of weakness of the AI and attack it.  Just waiting it out isn't an option unless you have a massive advantage in other aspects.

As well, many of the early RTS games had simplistic attack logic and no retreat logic in their AI's.  As a result, they would attack impregnable defenses head on, and wouldn't retreat no matter how bad things were going.  This made it very easy to set up a good defensive line and shred wave after wave of enemies.  Next generation AI's, like Sins, don't do that... or at least shouldn't do it.  There's an outstanding bug in Entrenchment that I've been asking the developers to fix that causes the AI to do just that.

well if there's any advice i could give buck, its just u have to decide where is the chokepoint early on

If I could jump in?

I'm a soon-to-be new parent whose gaming time is strictly limited and will only get more so.  I've spent the last year or so working through the Civ IV mods (turn-based is usually my speed), and am interested in returning to Sins, which I played a little bit when it first came out - I never got good at it, but was much better than I am now.  Now, I'm really, really bad, and don't have enough time to enjoy trial and error.  This thread has been quite helpful with videos and concrete examples, but I was wondering if I could hear a little bit about Advent economy techs? I almost always start x3 Harmony to have a better starting econ, but I feel I'm always starved for cash and either crystal or metal.

1. I get that the Progenitor is one of the major assists to Advent REXing, but what of the other Harmony techs would you say are absolutely critical to grab early?  In particular but not limited to: is spreading culture/allegiance worth grabbing early for purely economic reasons rather than the outside hope of flipping planets? I know allegiance effects total economic output, not sure if it matters enough in the early game to warrant either the research or the logistics slots. 

2. From the post above by Darvin - is it sometimes/always worth grabbing Volcanic / Arctic as needed early to take planets, rather than skip over them and keep pushing for asteroids? Or if I can find asteroid chokepoints past the volcanics should I leave them for later?

3. Has anyone done a tech analysis to compare with the ship-by-ship analysis found on this forum?

4.  If I control a nice, long, continuous line of planets and have trade ports at both ends, why do my trade vessels insist on pathfinding through systems I don't control?

5. How soon to max civilian infrastructure?  Priority over everything but resource collectors?  Ditto for exploration prior to it being free?

These and any other pieces of advice on jumpstarting what economy the Advent have would be much appreciated.  I know I could always go to TEC if I want a more intuitive econ, but I'm tied to the Advent for voice/theme reasons.

p.s. I've read this thread.  https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/330648

Advent has by far the worst assortment of civic technologies.  In the early game, the only really useful technologies are ice and volcanic colonization techs, which allow you access to different types of planets.  You might be interested in boosting your terran planet population or putting up a temple of communion, but overall there is nothing that I would call critical.  It doesn't get better at the higher tech levels, either.

Culture isn't a bad idea, but grabbing more planets is more important.

I can't answer with a generality here, because this really depends on a lot of factors, including the phase lane layout, how many militia are present, alternate planets available to colonize, distance and direction of the enemy and a few other advanced factors that I won't even get into here.

As a rule of thumb, your objective is to acquire the most amount of planets in the least amount of time.  You also have to make sure your fleet is ready for when you first encounter the enemy.  In general, this means you want to avoid planets with heavy militia or that are out of your way.  I personally adhere to the policy that I send my capital ship to clear out planets with medium levels of militia while my frigates go off on their own to clear planets with small levels of militia. 

I don't send my capital ship to nearby asteroids (unless it's convenient) and instead send them to more difficult or distant targets.  My regular frigates can deal with the militia on asteroids (and even some lightly defended planets) on their own and this lets me keep a better pace.

Ignoring ice and volcanic planets altogether saves you the time and money of building two harmony labs, which allows you to put that cash instead towards your military.  On smaller maps where the enemy begins 3 or 4 jumps away, this is a very sensible option (and if there are few ice or volcanics to acquire in the first place, it's definitely your best option).  However, if this would involve skipping past planets without colonizing them, that's a bad thing.

Yes, there has been a lot of spreadsheeting for this game.  In general, technologies are a sub-par investment.  Colonizing new planets or building trade ports on existing planets is generally your best economic investment.  Similarly, increasing the damage and hull points of your units is generally inferior to making more units.  That's not to say that research is worthless; the low-cost technologies available early in the tech tree in particular are quite useful.  However, they shouldn't be your top priority, and instead should be treated as a reasonable place to invest your cash if nothing else is convenient at the time.

Good question; I'd like to hear a developer answer that one, myself.

On the topic of trade ports, make sure you build them in a continuous line, since the trade route doesn't count if you don't have a port on every planet in between.

You should buy two population upgrades immediately (asteroids need only one).  After that, this is no longer a priority item.  For further upgrades (the 3rd and 4th level) you should wait until your current population cap has been reached, since it provides no benefit until that time.

Every faction is pretty well the same for economy, and the differences are actually not that significant.  The key to a strong economy is in colonization, and every faction is capable of the same tricks.

Thank you very much, Darvin3!

Won my first Advent game on Hard vs Vasari.  Did, however, turn off the damn Pirates.

Follow up questions:

1. Deceptive Illusion - thoughts?  Also, what's the advantage to "snaking" Illuminators?

2. What are the precise advantages for fighting in friendly culture?

3. On that note - is culture any better post Entrenchment, assuming it fixes battlelines a little more?

4. Allegiance is capped based on distance from capital regardless of cultural influence.  Worth moving capital to middle of empire on account?

1) Deceptive Illusions is a great way to create decoys.  It's probably the worst of the special abilities for each faction's LRF, but still worthwhile for a larger fleet.

As for "snaking illuminators", the goal is to keep all three beams firing at all times, and if they're constantly moving there's a better chance that they'll get such a shot.  As well, many units (including heavy cruisers, which are technically the counter to illuminators) are strictly forward shooters and will have trouble following the illuminators if they keep moving.

2) Depends from faction to faction; Advent gets increased shield mitigation, Vasari gets increased damage, and TEC gets increased antimatter regeneration.  Note that if you're fighting in allied culture, you get that ally's bonus rather than your own.

3) Not really.  Culture is about the same as it ever was, although Advent can produce a torrent of culture with its starbase, and that can be somewhat dangerous.

4) Culture can boost allegiance 10% above its normal level based on the location of your capital.  Moving your capital is sometimes worthwhile for larger empires or if your capital began in a really bad position.