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Volt_Cruelerz
Volt_Cruelerz
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Graphic Representation of Sins Counter System

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March 29, 2010 8:27:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

counters version III

 

Well, there you have it.  We lacked something like this, so I decided to make one since we have a rather large flow of newbies coming in.  I left off things like Starbases, structures, and planets since they are kinda off to the side...

 

Oh, here is a similar image from Badken.  It is more in depth and shows the actual multipliers against certain armor types.  Basically, use mine to get the gist and then use his for more detail.

 

Hope this helps.  Good luck all.   

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Swordsalmon
Join Date 03/2009
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Reply #1 March 29, 2010 9:08:00 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's a nice chart, but technically, Scouts and Colony Frigates 'counter' LRF by dealing anti-light damage. Support Cruisers also counter themselves.

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Darvin3
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Reply #2 March 29, 2010 9:14:51 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The only one you're missing here is that LRF counter capital ships.

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Reply #3 March 29, 2010 9:45:47 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, I would have included scouts, but they got nerfed...  big time...

 

And I'll include that in the next one...

 

EDIT: LRF are now shown to counter capitals

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Agent of Kharma
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Reply #4 March 30, 2010 11:33:50 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

You are missing that fighters counter lrf.

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Reply #5 March 30, 2010 4:54:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

sorry about that...  It will be fixed...

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Darvin3
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Reply #6 March 30, 2010 5:21:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Now that I notice it, capitals should not be considered a counter to anything.  An equal cost of light frigates will steamroll pretty much any capital ship, and even non-combat units like carriers can sustain capital ship attacks just as well (if not better) than other high firepower unit types like LRF or heavies.

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Agent of Kharma
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Reply #7 March 30, 2010 9:15:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Also, lrf shouldn't counter hc....

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Reply #8 March 30, 2010 11:14:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Shouldn't indeed, but in practice with the right support LRF can go toe-to-toe with heavies because their base damage is SO much higher. 

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Twilight_Storm
Join Date 07/2009
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Reply #9 March 30, 2010 11:56:39 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Excellent chart, Volt.  Mind if I include it in my updated version of the ship stats?  Assuming I get the chance to work on it.

-Twilight Storm

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Reply #10 March 31, 2010 12:04:48 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

@Darvin: Changes will be made in next update

@Storm: Sure

 

EDIT: Updated OP.  And btw, HC's are shown to be countered by LRF because they effectively are even though it is not in the code.

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Reply #11 March 31, 2010 10:24:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

And btw, HC's are shown to be countered by LRF because they effectively are even though it is not in the code.

Ya, agree.  Sad, but true.

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Twilight_Storm
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Reply #12 March 31, 2010 10:32:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Correct me if I'm wrong, then, but would all this not make a fleet of LF/LRF/Light Carriers w/ fighters technically un-counterable in reasonably even numbered battles?

LRF is core, Fighters protect LRF, LF kill Flak, which is the greatest threat.

Just curious.

-Twilight Storm

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Swordsalmon
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Reply #13 March 31, 2010 11:39:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Flak kills fighters far faster than LF can kill flak, though. :/

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Reply #14 April 1, 2010 12:04:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

True, but the Light Carriers are what need to be targetted to keep fighters down, and LRFs kill the only counter to them.

-Twilight Storm

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Reply #15 April 1, 2010 12:16:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It is difficult, but it can be countered by some fancy focus firing and micro-management.  First off, you want micromanage the use of repair cruisers to ensure that your fleet is lasting as long as possible.  From there, its basically a slugfest.  If late game, use critical mass bombers to wipe out the flak quickly at which point if playing as TEC with a level 6 Sova, you can convert to fighters to gain air superiority and then proceed to kill LRF.

 

But for the most part, the only wayt to do that really is to just have a rock-rock slugfest and see who manages abilities better.  That's what it comes down to.

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badken
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Reply #16 April 4, 2010 12:17:57 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I saw this topic and I had to have a go at this:

I thought about adding some absolute damage numbers for reference, because the bonuses don't tell the whole story, but I figured this should be enough info to figure out the counters.

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Darvin3
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Reply #17 April 4, 2010 12:47:02 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Good job, badken.  That chart on its own deserves to be stickied.  A highly useful resource for beginners.

The only thing I'd add is to differentiate the difference classes of capital ships.  List them as Colony, Battleship, Carrier, Siege, and Support.  By the way, the Revelation and Rapture battlecruisers are with the wrong groups.  The Revelation is actually a siege cap, even though its abilities make it appear like a support cap.  Check out its bombard damage if you don't believe me, some of the highest in the game.

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badken
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Reply #18 April 4, 2010 2:45:02 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks, I may yet go back and tweak it some more.

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Reply #19 April 4, 2010 10:03:14 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

That's a good graphic as well.  If you don't mind, I would like to use the update version in the OP.

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badken
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Reply #20 April 4, 2010 1:30:17 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Don't mind at all, glad I could help.

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badken
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Reply #21 April 5, 2010 11:43:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Okay, here's a version with capital ship names and base dps values:

EDIT: updated with latest image

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Ryat
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Reply #22 April 6, 2010 12:17:14 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

wow badken both you and Volt_Cruelez have some cool charts

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Reply #23 April 8, 2010 10:54:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Very nice, badken.

-Twilight Storm

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Darvin3
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Reply #24 April 9, 2010 1:56:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The one change I have to recommend is to scale the fighter and bomber DPS by squad size.  Each faction has different sized squads.

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badken
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Reply #25 April 9, 2010 10:45:45 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah, and the heavy armor bar doesn't go all the way under the four ships with heavy armor...

That's the problem with making a chart like this, it's never done

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