Good TEC fleet?

Mid/Late game

Hi,

After reading through good reviews, I bought Trinity a few days ago. So far I am enjoying the game, and have got my furthest today. I am playing Entrenchment (I read posts on this forum saying it is easier for people to start off with)

I guess I am at Mid game. I've built up my defences, bought all weapon, armour and antimatter defences, and have been defending my planets with ease from an Argonev Star Base (Advent haven't even got past the shields yet) with full weapon and armour upgrades

At this stage in the game my fleet consists of:

1x LVL 6 Marza

1x LVL 3 Dunov

1x LVL 3 Sova

1x LVL 6 Kol

5x LVL 3 Kol

6x Perechon Carriers

23x Kodiaks

10x Hoshikos

 

 

What other ships should I add to this fleet? Is it powerful enough already?

 

Thank you in advance for any advice,

 

James227uk

 

 

11,845 views 16 replies
Reply #1 Top

First things first (it's a common beginner mistake, don't worry): you have way too many capital ships for a fleet of that size.  You can get away with this against the AI, particularly the lower difficulty levels, but it's still not a good idea. 

For a fleet of that size as TEC, I'd say you should have 3-6 capital ships on average.  Having too many capital ships can reduce your frigate count significantly.  Too few frigates can give your fleet too little firepower to get the job done.  Against the AI (which, particularly at lower difficulties, can have chronically undersized fleets in the late game) you won't notice this, but if you go online you'll find yourself outnumbered 2:1 and the results are not pretty.

As for unit types, you probably want to mix in some gardas, but a kodiak/hoshiko based fleet is perfectly viable for a TEC player.  Don't underestimate the value of the Javelis LRM, though, in many cases it's a superior choice to the more expensive and high tech Kodiak.

 

Now, judging from your description of the scenario, you've already won the game.  Researching all the military technologies is a massive expense.  Despite all the time and money you invested in that, the AI wasn't able to make your defensive line budge an inch.  It's just a matter of time until you defeat the AI.  The bottom line is that if the AI was ever going to defeat you, it already would have.  I could rant about the AI's inability to take on starbases, but I'll spare you the wall of text.

Strategy-wise, particularly as TEC, you need to focus on the early game.  Anyone with a sufficiently powerful empire can build a fleet of doom and crush their opponents (against the AI, this is just a matter of getting a few starbases operational and sitting back for a while until you've built up).  The big questions in terms of strategy are about getting there in the first place.  TEC are the weakest faction overall in the late game, so you need to have that much more economic power in your favour. 

The first tip I have to give is colonization.  In the early game your top priority is to capture and hold as many planets as you can get.  Trade ports are tempting, but your money is always better placed in expanding quickly.  The Akkan battlecruiser is the best capital ship to support this, though in combat situations where the enemy starts within 2-3 jumps leading with a Sova carrier is a smarter idea.  Marza should be saved for a later capital ship (at earliest your second), and Kol and Dunov should be saved for later in the game (at earlier your third).

For fleet, getting hoshikos operational is top priority.  Usually the Kodiak is too far up the tech tree to be accessible, so the lower-level Javelis LRM is a much better idea.  You can always phase in Kodiaks later.  Kodiaks are much tougher than Javelis, but cost-for-cost the Javelis actually deal more damage.  Getting a varied fleet with at least a couple unit types is a high priority, and TEC is actually quite privileged in that you can stay at the 3-lab level well into the late game and still claim to have a serious fleet.  The other factions will need to reach the 5 and 6 military lab level, but if you don't need the Kodiak TEC can delay this almost indefinitely.

Tech-wise, you don't need to complete the entire tech tree.  In fact, this is often very expensive and time consuming.  Usually if you have the opportunity to do this, it means you could have spent that cash on units and gone on the offensive and captured some new planets.  Don't fall into the trap of hesitation and sitting back until you've completed the entire tech tree.  Often times you can win much more easily and quickly by being aggressive.

Reply #2 Top

Never build Kols. They're completely atrocious and offer nothing useful to a fleet for their costs. Otherwise, you need many more Hoshiko Robotics Cruisers. I'd say about at least 25% of any TEC fleet should be Hoshis. LRMs and Gardas are also essential for dealing damage and killing off SC/LRF quickly.

Reply #3 Top

Thanks for the advice

@Darvin3

Thanks for those tips. I'll remember to build the Akkan first next time. Would 10-20 cobalts and 1 Akkan be a good fleet at the start of the game?

@Swordsalmon

Thanks. I'll remember not to build Kols next time. Which ones should I build next time, instead of the Kols?

Reply #4 Top

Capital-wise, the Akkan is arguably the best colonizer capital as of the most recent patches, giving 1/2/3 free extractors and a 33%/66%/100% temporary bonus to extraction rates with its Colonize ability.

As it stands, carrier capitals are fairly powerful, each in their own respect. For the Sova, this means having 3 to 4 Missile Platforms out at the same time (which will help to bolster your fleet), or denying your enemy of the credits of one of their planets.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting james227uk, reply 3

@Swordsalmon

Thanks. I'll remember not to build Kols next time. Which ones should I build next time, instead of the Kols?
End of james227uk's quote

The Akkan Battlecruiser or Sova Carrier. The Akkan is a fantastic starting cap, because its Colonize gives multiple free extractors and a nice income boost. Starting with an Akkan gives TEC a great starting economy. For combat, Sovas are the overall strongest TEC cap. Three Bombers, Missile Batteries, and improved SC more than makes up for its 33 base damage.

The Marza Dreadnought is also an alright cap. It kills planets fast, but that's about it. And the Dunov and Kol aren't worth looking at.

Reply #6 Top

Never build Kols.
End of quote

I wouldn't go so far as to say "never".  The Kol is a decent late game capital ship, though certainly it should be avoided in the early game.  You should at very least have a few antimatter regeneration technologies researched before you bring out the Kol. 

The Kol has been nicknamed by the fanbase as the "brick", because it's one of the toughest capital ships in the game but it really doesn't do a lot.  Its abilities cost exorbitant amounts of antimatter, but it actually has very poor antimatter capacity as far as capital ships go.  This means the Kol usually gets one or two uses of its main abilities before it's out of antimatter.  After that, it's a brick and doesn't really do that much.

 

Would 10-20 cobalts and 1 Akkan be a good fleet at the start of the game?
End of quote

Bring out the Javelis LRM a little earlier, don't stick with cobalts too long.  Unless your opponent is very heavy on the carriers, cobalts should never make up the majority of your fighting force.

As I said, your top priority (particularly as TEC) is to bring out at least two other unit types, preferably the Javelis LRM and the Hoshiko Robotics Cruiser.  If you can round that out with carriers or gardas, that simple selection of units could last you the entire game.

 

Which ones should I build next time, instead of the Kols?
End of quote

Akkan is always good, but you probably don't need more than one.  Sova is an excellent choice in the early game, but it fizzles out in the mid-game and is a mediocre choice in the late-game.  Kol is absolutely horrible in the early game, but it becomes respectable later on.  The Marza is a solid choice, though I wouldn't pick it as your first capital ship.  Dunov is something that is best reserved for later on.

Reply #7 Top

One of the problems with having all of those capital ships is that they dilute the experience.  If you wanted to play it as a power gamer, just go with 1 Akkan for colonizing, and three Marzas for planet bombing and Missile Barrage.  Having all of those other caps would make it harder for the Marza to level up (to Level 6).  However, having more than 1 Level 6 Marza (or any of them at all) might make it too easy to stomp the AI.

Reply #8 Top

Typically my opening run (now) goes like this:

- Build Akkan

- Build 2 civic labs, get Ice and Volcanic colonisation techs

- Research fleet capacity upgrade

- Build 20 cobalts

- Colonise a wealthy amount of planets

 

Where would building the Javelis frigates fit in?

 

Just another side question, I played a FFA Diplomacy and got lost. In the first 10 minutes, I was getting missions from the AI. What do I do? Continue colonising and expanding my empire or complete these missions?

Reply #9 Top

I've only just picked up the vanilla game, and working through my first campaign to get the feel for it.  I've researched all the way up the tech tree, have virtually unlimited resources, but my issue is with the Advent.

 

I keep getting hammered by Advent fleets with massive numbers of fighters and bombers.  Combined with a perception that I'm doing very little actual damage to their ships (it seems to take forever to knock holes in them), it's somewhat frustrating. 

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with mass assault by bombers?

Reply #10 Top

Where would building the Javelis frigates fit in?
End of quote

Before researching your fleet capacity upgrade.  Perhaps I wasn't clear before: do not build 20 cobalts.  You can build 3 or 4 to help with colonization, but don't make them the backbone of your fleet.  The only time to build large numbers of cobalts is if your enemy is spamming carrier cruisers or flak frigates, which usually only happens online.  If you're ready to build a proper fleet of reasonable size, upgrade to Javelis right away and build 20-30 of those.

Secondly, don't wait for your fleet to start your colonization.  Send your capital ship out immediately to acquire planets.  Heck, you can even go so far as to send your capital ship in one direction and a few cobalts in the other direction to colonize planets quickly.  There are usually a few planets with low militia counts nearby that your frigates can handle without capital ship support.

Thirdly, your plan should always be based on what feedback you're getting from your scouts.  There is the off chance that you will begin in a position with few ice and volcanic planets, in which case you might seriously consider delaying civic labs altogether and going all-out military.  Even if there are a couple of ice or volcanic planets nearby, if they have high militia counts or are out of your way, you might just save them for later.  Similarly, if you encounter an enemy nearby (this happens very often on larger FFA games) you may want to go all-out military.

 

Just another side question, I played a FFA Diplomacy and got lost. In the first 10 minutes, I was getting missions from the AI. What do I do? Continue colonising and expanding my empire or complete these missions?
End of quote

When learning the game, you may want to change the settings to "locked teams".  The AI's will not give you missions in this setting and will not be able to form alliances between each other.  This is just one less factor you need to worry about when you're still learning the ropes.

In general, you should never stop your expansion in the early game for any reason except to attack or defend.  In the long run, having a large empire pays off spectacularly.

 

I keep getting hammered by Advent fleets with massive numbers of fighters and bombers.  Combined with a perception that I'm doing very little actual damage to their ships (it seems to take forever to knock holes in them), it's somewhat frustrating.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with mass assault by bombers?

End of quote

I presume you're TEC.  The way you described it, you allowed the game to go on way too long.  The longer the game goes on, the harder it will be to win as TEC.  They're very much an early-hitter faction that depends on building a superior fleet and economy to overpower the enemy.  Once the tech tree is mostly done and the fleet cap has been reached, TEC has almost no advantages over Advent and Vasari.

The answer to huge swarms of strike craft are actually capital ships.  Each faction has one capital ship with a special ability that is custom-made to punish massed strike craft.  For TEC, this is the Kol with flak burst.  This ability will damage all strike craft in the area of effect.  Unfortunately, it takes 2-4 bursts to kill depending on the type of strike craft and the level of your Kol.  So you will need to complement that with other units.  Vasari and Advent have it easy; their special abilities actually shut down the bombers for a short period of time, whereas TEC are still taking the full brunt of that damage until the bombers are killed.

You'll need a large formation of gardas, and having your own carriers equipped with fighters is a good idea.  Two Kols with flak burst (preferably upgraded, though that might not be feasible) will be able to deal massive damage to the swarm of bombers making it easy for your other units to finish them off.  However, you will need to time these abilities perfectly so as to hit the maximum number of bombers with each burst.  If left on autocast, flak burst will be wasted on small groups and will be on cooldown while the main swarm is overhead.

Beyond this, damage dealers are the other side of the equation.  TEC is the lowest damage dealing faction in the late game, but the Javelis LRM and Kodiak Heavy Cruiser still pack a competitive punch.  Back them up with hoshikos to keep them alive and you can win battles of attrition quite nicely.  As TEC in the late game, however, you have to be aware that you're a faction of attrition.  You can't overpower a fleet of equal size and you'll need to win by being able to replace your casualties faster.  Be prepared to lost and replace capital ships, as well.

Getting high level capital ships is a high priority for TEC.   TEC capital ships are fairly weak in the late game, having few fleet support abilities.  However, if they can reach level 6 this changes and they become very powerful.  The Marza and Akkan in particular have awesome abilities when they reach the highest levels, and the Dunov and Kol have great level 6 abilities as well.

Reply #11 Top

Thanks Darvin, that is pretty much what I had found, and confirms it.  Reading up on other threads has also confirmed other things that I had found, such as underpowered capital ships.  I had been playing around with various battle tactics, but found that it's far too micro-managing.  Perhaps the main issue is simply to keep an overall eye on what happens in battles, and manage the special abilities...

Reply #12 Top

Perhaps the main issue is simply to keep an overall eye on what happens in battles, and manage the special abilities...
End of quote

Very much so.  You should definitely focus on your special abilities.  The unit AI is smart enough to focus fire, so for the most part you can leave combat frigates to their own devices.  The only units you might want to "dance" around with are fighters and bombers, which have the mobility to actually move around enemies.

Reply #13 Top

I appreciate your advice.  I just ditched that campaign, as you said, it hit the wall.

 

I ended it with a massive battle where I committed everything I had, including a dozen capitals, against an Advent fleet of about half my numbers - the 16 small carriers they had simply spawned masses of fighters and bombers, and despite completely replacing my fleet 3 times, and feeding the new builds into the battle, I only managed to destroy two of their capital ships, and only a handfull of smaller stuff.  Advent abilities are just too powerful later game for TEC to compete, regardless of the industrial capacity you have (notwithstanding probable errors I made). 

 

What I did find interesting was that if you kill off all the population on a planet, there doesn't seem to be any ill effect on the structures orbiting it...which makes that TEC novalinith (?) cannon a virtual waste of effort. I had five, and was continually pounding their planets, and it had seemingly no effect.  If the structures died as well, it would certainly address the imbalance that the TEC face in fleet battles.

 

Ahh, well....onto the other races now.....

Reply #14 Top

Advent abilities are just too powerful later game for TEC to compete, regardless of the industrial capacity you have (notwithstanding probable errors I made).
End of quote

Yup, Advent vs TEC in the late game is positively a slaughter, and there's very little the TEC can do about it unless they have superior numbers.  Against the AI you could definitely pull it off (though you'd need a bit more experience as a player than you have now).  Against a human player, you can just forget about it.

 

the 16 small carriers
End of quote

Wouldn't call the Advent carriers "small", they're actually the largest and most expensive non-capital ship unit in the game.  They pay for all those extra squads, rest assured.  Strike craft is one of the few areas Advent actually doesn't have a substantial late game advantage.

 

What I did find interesting was that if you kill off all the population on a planet, there doesn't seem to be any ill effect on the structures orbiting it...which makes that TEC novalinith (?) cannon a virtual waste of effort
End of quote

Like everything in the TEC arsenal, it's awesome if you bring it out early, and gets worse as the game drags on.  When you first get ahold of it, it's the strongest superweapon, but once you reach the very late stages when money is no object it's (as you say) a waste of effort.

TEC's only saving grace in the late game is its industrial capacity.  If that's not enough to overpower the enemy, then there's little you can do. 

 

If the structures died as well, it would certainly address the imbalance that the TEC face in fleet battles.
End of quote

Nope, destroying orbital structures (and units, for that matter) is the effect of the Vasari superweapon.  The Vasari superweapon is godly to the point at which once a player has enough of them he's basically unstoppable.

 

Ahh, well....onto the other races now.....
End of quote

TEC is still a powerful race, it's just they're more of an early-game race.  Hit that same Advent near the start of the game before he gets his high level tech and TEC can really pound the living daylights of them. 

Reply #15 Top

Do you think the situation for TEC against Advent and Vasari late-game is really that hopeless Darvin?  None of the pros have come up with strategies for knocking down Advent battle balls and Vasari Subverters and bomber spam with their superior numbers?  I bet many have.

Reply #16 Top

Do you think the situation for TEC against Advent and Vasari late-game is really that hopeless Darvin?  None of the pros have come up with strategies for knocking down Advent battle balls and Vasari Subverters and bomber spam with their superior numbers?  I bet many have.
End of quote

The problem is not so much that it's impossible to win as TEC in the late game (because it can be done) but rather if you had actually had those kinds of superior numbers, you should have already won.

If you were only just matching the Advent or Vasari in the mid-game, when TEC advantages are still relatively potent by comparison, what makes you think you have any chance in the late game when TEC advantages are diminishing and Advent/Vasari advantages are growing?  Simply put, the TEC's time to shine is in the early-game, and any advantage they carry into the late game is what they earned early on. 

If you weren't good enough to actually gain an advantage in the early game when TEC is at its finest, how do you expect to do so in the late game when TEC is simply outmatched?