Defeating Vasari Bomber Spam

well, bombers are only good agaist cap ships, heavy cruisers, buildings and starbases... so basicly, keep your cap ship near the edge of the grav well, and fill your fleet with your with carriers filled with fighters, flack, LRMS, and maybe some LFs if he has tons of carrier cruisers.  2 kols with flackburst, 2 kortuls with jam weapons, or 2 haylcons with telepush also work very well against strike craft spam, but in particular with vasari bomber spam, the donov magnatize seems to work especially well, thanks to the small numbers of strike craft in each squad.  (if you do it right, its rather funny... cause it also disables ablities... as soon as that wears off, the skirantra will cast scramble bombers, and your donov will cast magnatize again, causing the bombers it JUST launched to be destroyed on the skirantra's hull.)

that magnetize tactic sounds very interesting. last time i tried magnetize back in vanilla it didnt seem to work correctly.. but ill definitely try that. the problem with fighters is that in close fleet engagements the enemy will have flak to nullify your fighters. and your flak wont kill bombers effectively.. jam weapons is viable but the AM required for it will leave you vulnerable for a long time.. as with the kol ideas. telepush may work. if the guy hasnt already assasinated your halcyons with kanrak spam. but ill definitely try the magnetize and the 2 kortuls.

all the carriers got a bit jacked up (the skirantras got it major) and the Kortul got a good buff up as well so Jam works a lot better now

jam weapons i feel should work in a way so that once the fighters/bombers enter the bubble they cant fire, instead of how they work now ( the fighters/bombers, have to be inside the bubble already for jam weapons to work.)

It does work that way now.  If anything enters the bubble, it shuts down.

Actually, that's a reasonable request.

However, that'd make it too OP compared to the 2 abilities it is related to

kol:  Flak Burst, damages strike craft in range.

halcyon:  Telekinetic Push, damages strikecraft in range and throws them away from the cap, negating that attack run.

kortul:  Jam Weapons, makes strikecraft in range worthless for the duration of the ability.

the Kortul is already the most powerful of the 3, since the strikecraft just sit there for flak and your own fighters to take them out unless the player hangars them.  (in which case this ability just worked against you if you had damaged any squads)

also, to make it constant like you ask, it'd really only protect the kortul.

-Twilight Storm

???

Then it is BY FAR the superior ability.  However, it still only protects the kortul, not the fleet unless they're RIGHT there next to it.

at least the other two damage the craft for the fleet.

-Twilight Storm

what are you talking about it is the superior ability..? meh sure they damage the craft for the fleet. but if you have enough flak... youll do alot more than simply throwing them out into space or firing a 100 dmg flak burst shell.

That was in response to the post Darvin submitted while I was typing the first one, didn't want to edit all that out.  I mean Jam Weapons is by far superior, maybe even TOO superior.

as to flak, I'd rather have ships to damage the enemy ships and just use Flak Burst if I can get away with it.  Which is absically any time the enemy doesn't start with a Carrier Cap.

-Twilight Storm

Magnetize as far as i know doesnt work. i tried it yesterday and no strikecraft were damaged by it.

Magnetize doesn't damage strike craft, it destroys them outright.  Very much an all-or-nothing ability, either killing the SC or not affecting it at all.

So its work or fail then?

fail.

You must have gotten unlucky and had no strikecraft get close enough to the enemy ship.

Unless Magnetize is broken...

-Twilight Storm

More bombers.  Forget fighters/flak. These are soft counters.  Micro cycle push and/or shield restore.

I can't speak specifically about other special Cap abilities mgmt. other than to say that trying to micro a Dunov at close range, or maneuver a Kortul in response to 2 or more Skirantras is a dicey proposition.  It's hard enough trying to micro along with watching your other engagements and build/research orders to have to route Cap ships with close proximity special abilities through an enemy entrenchment - But here is the method I've suggested above and used successfully against Skirantras and scramble bombers with Advent (sometimes more than others):  

If you are attacking enemy held planet, keep 2 (or more) Halcyons parked at grav edge with push (hotkey carriers separately) cycling between them (no autocast).  Level two push is adequate, but level 3 rulz.  Park AMAP bomber hosts adjacent to Halcyons and run separate hotkey'd groups of bombers at the Skirantras and keel them!  If you do happen to have flak, use them in local area range and assign them to the Halcyons - (If you have the supply, and a 3rd cap, use Progen with shield restore alongside and you will increase your grav presence time). 

Generally, unless assaulted by mass Kanraks, you can take down the Skirantras in a domino fashion one by one, and on subsequent visits to the grav well (should you need to jump to friendly grav well with a repair array set up).  Of course, you should keep your Caps on hold position pointed in the direction of the jump as near to the phase lane demarcation as possible.  Chances are you can cull the Skirantras and then be able to bring up lf's or lrms to handle Kanraks and Transports.  At the least he will have to rotate his Skirantras out and you may gain the advantage depending on your fleet comp during those interludes when he is down a carrier or two.  The Parked Halcyons on the Grav Well Gambit will occupy that particular Vasari opponent, and halt his planetary advance quite possibly allowing you to fortify/reinforce your position, if not surmount his forces altogether.  It is all timing though.

see what i happened to find with advent is if its early game a mass of flak will essentially stop vasari bombers since they arent in the mass needed to neutralize caps. because you have flak you then get ilums and you completely change the strategy of the vasari opponent. as advent of course.

All talk about lategame. I never had much problems against this carriers in lategame. The Problem is at the beginning on smaler maps. Ive tried it with the kortul. but a kortul on lvl 2 will not survive long against two carrieres. As i dont want to use carrierspam too, i am looking for another possibility to fight against the carriers. But all ive found only works when the enemy dont rush with the carriers.

Ive tried it with fighters, but as soon as i build fighters, he will build 5 to 6 flak to counter this. Sure i can kill the antifighters first, but that will cost much time. if the antifighers are gone the carriers nearly killed my planet. As i focus on one carrier he just jump out to come back was soon as i fight the other carrier.

This is what I do as the Tec. It may vary depending on the map but this is my basic strategy.

Make bunch of LRM, while researching Hull and armor upgrade. Keep making LRM as you research towards Hoshiko. then when you meet their carriers, you should have a good amount of Lrm, just focus fire on the carriers one by one until they retreat.

Make sure you bring your capital ship too so that it will soak up their damage if they try to destroy using their bombers but watch its health.

When they retreat, the opponent will probably be switching to fighters so don't follow, instead produce some hoshikos and research flak.. Flaks don't do much damage so don't make it until you see them switching to fighters. You should have level 3 armor upgrade by now.

This is what I do to everyone, and even to bomber spammers. I only use 1 capital ship, and scuttle my capital ship factory. You may use what ever starting capital ship you want, but I use the akkan. By having 1 capital ship you will have a much greater fleet than your opponent, but don't waste any units.  I won't say this is a counter, but it's a safe way to start the game, atleast for me, since i find it okay against advent, and very good against other tec players.

The Vasari bomber is really only an issue for capital ships and starbases...like anything in SoaSE, they only become a real problem if they are spammed....and spamming can always be stopped...

Lets look at the disadvantage of bombers:

1)  Light carriers require antimatter, which can be stolen by disciples, depleted by EMP, and depleted by lots of phase jumping...

2)  Strikecraft can't be used in Plasma Storms

3)  Bombers aren't nearly as effective against LRFs

4)  If a light carrier is destroyed, it takes a while to build AND a while to build the SC squadrons...

Be creative and take advantage of these 4 disadvantages...

For fleet composition, if your enemy uses Bombers + Enforcers, then you go Bombers + LFs...LFs suck against heavy cruisers, but are by far the best at taking down carriers...rush the carriers, take them down, and swallow the losses of your LFs...Disciples are the best for this since they have steal antimatter...yeah, you suffered great losses, BUT it takes a LOT longer to build carriers AND build the squadrons than it does to build more frigates and cruisers...hoskikos are good for this as they can disable lots of HCs and prevent them from moving while you rush the carriers...

If your enemy goes Bombers + Assailants, then you go Anti-SC with support ships...you won't have any firepower, but your enemies bombers will fall...introduce HCs and Fighters only AFTER you have widdled down the bombers...

Whenever you find your enemy using a military strategy you don't know how to counter, find a way to force them to change tactics...the best way to do this is to force them into very difficult decisions...

If you attack, bring in siege frigates and some long range cruisers like Ogrovs AFTER your fleets are engaged...either they lose the planet and structures, or they must micro-manage the bombers to take out those ships...if you separate your fleet from these "diversions", their bombers are away from Anti-SC support AND will not be taking out your HCs...

If you have the option, force your enemy to make many phase jumps...use feints, use wormholes, use Sova's with embargo or Ogrovs or siege frigates or Advent starbases with culture facilities...anything that forces the enemy to make a phase jump or two...that kills the antimatter on those carriers...

Ultimately, if you are Advent you should NEVER be outdone by SC...a lvl 6 progenitor or 2 with resurrection will save those high level cap ships, and your Halcyons + Fighters should be able to take down Vasari bombers easily...their bombers HAVE to be over YOUR fleet...use Repulsion to keep away those Sentinels so your fighters aren't shot down...

If you are TEC, you should have set yourself up to be in an economic advantage in the early game...produce ships faster than the Vasari player, going with the above fleet compositions...do not underestimate Dunovs, Kols, or the lvl 6 ability on the Sova which allows a kodiak to be built in 7 seconds...