Tired of noob eco players so ima teach you

I disagree on this one; no more than one trade port per planet, all built to expand your trade network.  Never build trade ports if it would slow down your expansion, because until loyalty hits ~50% extractors churn out more wealth each than a trade port does.  However, that said, I do agree that you should be building trade ports as soon as you can afford them; if you have money idling in your bank account, you're doing it wrong.

Once you get moving, you should be trade port spamming and expanding voraciously.  Never fleet up unless you're in a position to fight over the middle of the map (in which case you fleet up only as much as needed and ensure that fleet is constantly taking new worlds, support allies, or harassing enemies).  If you do want to support your allies, either go all-out fleet and abandon your role as an economist (sometimes necessary if a front is breaking up and you need to step into the cracks) or you should build starbases as your contribution.  Never sacrifice a fleet-level upgrade (and take the upkeep penalty) just to send a couple of extra frigates to an ally's aid.  If you already have the fleet upgrade, sure, but otherwise avoid upkeep like the plague.

Yeah...

the only issue with overdeveloping your economy is that the players who rushrushrush to the point of bankruptcy are going to mop the floor with you, early game.  Mid to Late game, it's the other way around, but IMO the early game is the hardest to get past.

Xer0 \^/

I have found success when waiting until I have four planets or more before getting Trade Ports.

Just me though.

okay xero i was saying this if it was in ECONOMY postion in larger games. i am the BEST advent eco player so im fairly sure i know what im talking about investments in lots of early trade pays off a ton more later if u ever see a player like jbaum online ask him how he constantly gets 10-30 creds than any of ur eco players for whole game. he is able to do this because he spams trade early.

I see. You play Advent. I was referring to TEC.

Some feed is going to come out of the budget, that's for certain, but what's left needs to go towards economy.

Beyond that, it's really up to the front-liners to budget themselves and to ask for the appropriate levels of feed.  If there isn't enough to go around, they need to switch to a defensive strategy and put up starbases and block access to their pocket.  There's only so much a pocket player can do about this, and at a certain point he's in a catch 22; feed his allies and kill his own economy leading to defeat, or don't feed his allies and have his front-lines fall, leading to defeat. 

Not to offend you or anything, but in my opinion the difference between two skilled eco players is not very significant, at least compared with all the other variables.  It's going to come down to how the map randomed, and how much "bang for your buck" you're getting by sending feed to your allies.  These factors are simply out of your hands, and no matter how good you are if they're working against you then you're probably screwed.

The bottom line is that if I get a line of roids that lets my rapidly set up that trade chain, or a couple 3-rock neutrals in close proximity, that's going to be very hard for the enemy to compete with even if he is better than me.  On the other hand, a 1-lane roid-screw is going to seriously hamper my ability to actually get an economy rolling.  I've had some that were so bad that I was literally incapable of building an eco.  Similarly, some allies will be able to kill their opponents if you can hook them up with 5000 credits of feed, others will need that just to survive.  

There's a lot to be said for the eco player balancing the books and keeping his whole team running smoothly, but the bottom line is that the results are governed by forces beyond his control.



Doesn't matter; in the eco spot, Advent and TEC play virtually identically.  Even the Vasari aren't much different, but they get held back by the fact that the Jarrasul has no economic bonus on colonize and trade ports cost a whopping 4-labs (but if you're lucky you can grab extra neutrals to compensate).  Not a big deal for 3-lab Advent.

Superfleet: I know your point of view; I was just saying that in my experience spending time tending to economic perfection often means that you're going to be outsized planetwise, and maybe fleet-wise, by the military-favoring players.  It's obvious who wins in the later games, economists, but it's more of a matter of who's either the luckiest or the smartest when facing a rusher early game.

Xer0 \^/

 

Lol.

okay xero u still dont seem to get what im saying. in a large 5vs5 the eco guy is not going to get rushed becuase he has guys to guard him. also i understand that the map is random but take for example if we did one of the maps that the devs made for the game like gateway. if i were facing and advent eco on the other side i would probably be ahead of them for most of the game

 

OK here is my 5 cents to discussion.

I usually don't build more than 1 trade port on planet until I have four planets in trade line. Trade line is very important. At that point I start upgrading planets and spam trade ports. I also sell my factories as soon as in addition to cap colonizer I build enough ships to fill my fleet.

Now if you are vasari its much more important that you get resource extraction building (not resource extractor) since their resource extraction research is much faster and cheaper so I put 1 of those on each planet with more than 3 phase lanes.

TO XERO

In mp games depending on positions of the players each one has a role it needs to play. So the guy or guys that have allied players on left and right go eco (means develop economy as strong as they can and feed guys that are fighting.

 

 

 

After they develop economy (if teammate in trouble even before) as superfleet said either

-they start sb what they can and feed other players or they fleet up themselves (they still need to be able to feed)

-attack or harass  their eco guy and destroy his economy

-double guy that is already fighting with your ally (open second front) -with this they force their eco guy to fleet up and as it happens  sometimes they don't have factories or research ready to counter attacking fleet. Such attack can decide game very quick. If its executed  correctly fighting guy on enemy team might be reduced down to last planet  

To Darvin:

You are absolutely correct about what other players do with the feed and about map layout. But I think what warfleet is talking about is big differences. Let me give you an example.

Few days ago there was 5v5 match with 1 suicide spot on each team. Both players were rushed and situations resolved fairly quick and about the same time.  Map layout was similar on both sides. Game finished in just over an hour time.

Now player on my team had eco up + he was feeding all the time and (by charts  50 min into game) had 340 cred ps income. Player on other team had 68 cred ps in the same time....... and he wasn't feeding so much

I could give you the reasons why so much difference.....       

refinary building should be based off of rock numbers, not phase lanes, and as vasari, with all your neutral grabbing, any resources that you get from a refinary tend to go to being sold on the black market...

untill you start having to buy stuff on the black market again... trade ports are the way to go. feel free to save 3 logistic slots on that planet with 5 phase lanes for refinaries... but trade ports, even as vasari, are very important.

I find broadcast centers much more important than refinarys. a single broadcast center increases income by 10% on your hw... and it gets better the farther away it is.  a fringe world... going from 35% to 45%, thats an income from taxes/resource extractor increase of 28.5%! thats huge! and, depending on placement and the map, you can get away with very very few of em, one broadcast center will cover preety quickly planets that are 2 phase jumps away from the building. (assuming your not running into enemy culture or capitalships bombing your planets, at which point we wonder why your going eco)

but ya. if say, i was rushing a player and crushed him, and now i have a large empire, and need to go eco... if i am vasari or advent, ill often get a broadcast center or 2 up first before geeting tradeports... and even as tec, they are high up on the list of things to buy. (expecially because of the tec's culture bonus... a single into that tier 4 tech, doubles the AM regeneration on your carrier cruisers... and not having to worry about AM on carrier cruisers is a very, very nice thing.)

When I watch replays, people love to hold on to their credits, and have like 10k in their hands too much. (such as ..... j...... ba....) anyway many people have too much attention on their own econ and not feeding the quiet people who really need the feed. When im eco, I usually will have a slightly worse credit income than the opponent team, but then the graph after the game is finished shows that I fed atleast 2 times the amount of credits.

Yes they might need to speak up, but still the feeder should be watching the whole map all the time and spending most of their credits on feeding to help the players who need it. I rather win a quick match than to turtle up until ones eco is finished to be able to feed each ally 30k credits.

What I notice about a lot of players is that they only pay attention to their match versus the guy next to him. so then the econ player must make sure they know whats going on in the map and alert theyre teammates.

...did the OP actually suggest installing colony pods? 

 

How long are you planning on playing, OP? Doesn't it take an hour for colony pods to pay for themselves?

 

I'm sure the OP has plenty of experience with the game and really means well, but I have a hard time taking advice from someone suggesting the use of colony pods.

It does; I was the one who number crunched them.  Bottom line:  never even bother to research colony pods.  Complete waste of your money. 

I presume this is an oversight on the part of the original poster.  Even experienced people can glance at something and mis-read its effectiveness.

To Pbhead

I assumed when I said those 4 phase lanes that all have extractors on the other end.

 

 

And yes me too. I build culture centers as soon as I can. I usually build them 4 planets apart. More on the edge of my empire.

And if we are specific as vasari almost always I buy tier 3 cheaper ships and buildings research (don't know the name) before I place first trade port. For 10 ports you get one free (credit wise).

Regarding colony pods. I don't bother with them unless enemy gets novaliths. After that I try to get my population count up. How long it gets to repay them...... Credit wise by my quick calculation around 35 min. That calculation doesn't include resources.   

And for all that do not know

superfleet = SB Warfleet = currently one of best players on SINS MP

And this is why I like 2 vs. 2...there are no eco players...you go eco, you get rushed, and you die....

okay i would like to say thanks to greg who is MR G a very skilled player on Sins MP and one of my favorites to play with. I suggested colony pods cus its and increase in income, i have never had the oppurtunity to really use it so i dont know how economically efficent it is, but it is a way to increase ur income

 

I did some number crunching a while back for weaker economic upgrades.  After that, I came to the conclusion that colony pods are the worst economic investment in the game.

In theory they look nice, but when you actually compare their income against their cost (even ignoring the starbase...) it's a ridiculous rip-off.  And once you count the cost of the starbase... it'll actually cost you less to build four civic labs, research trade ports, and build your first trade port (which, without any trade route bonus, earns about the same amount of money as colony pods).  I am not joking, it's that worthless.

everything in sins depends on the scenario. if uve done verything else to increase your income, then it should be your last attempt to increase your income. also very usefull when novaliths are around

 

The investment into colony pods costs you 1800 credits, 275 metal, and 150 crystal (not counting the starbase or any research).  Using a 4.5:1 resource to credit ratio, that's an effective credit cost of 3700 credits.  At fast game speed, it churns out 1.3 credits per second, which means you're looking at 2855 second payback time, which comes out to about 48 minutes.  In other words, you have to wait 48 minutes for this investment to become profitable. 

The bottom line is, if the game has already gone on this late to the point at which you've maxed out your economy and superweapons are being fielded, I sincerely doubt it will go on for another 48 minutes.  If there's a significant chance the game won't last long enough for this investment to pay off, and it's not a very big payoff to begin with (especially compared to a maxed out economy which should have well over 100 creds per second) there's still no reason to pursue this.  Moreover, as a Vasari you should be Kostura spamming by this point, or at very least feeding allies who should be raising close to maximum-sized fleets.

Frankly, how many times have you filled every logistic slot, researched every economic technology, and still had nothing tactical to spend that money on, but the enemy still has a serious chance of winning?  I've personally never seen this situation occur.

Well when I calculated colony pods self payout time i didn't count sb purchase into equation because I dont build them before novaliths come into play and at that point if u want to hold on to planet you need to have loyality purchased.

And 2 colony pod upgrade is much more effective than first since (i might be wrong on this) it gives you 3.3 or even more cred ps. Its not just 2x more. Its similar to tec trade on SB which doesn't multiply by 2 as well.

Now once u are forced to build sb on every planet you can easily add trade port on sb as well if you really want to max your economy. And that extra trade port somehow utilizes sb build even more. 

 

Darvin3, I'm curious as to why you chose 4.5-1 as your ratio...in my experience only the TEC have to generally purchase resources, and even then, its usually only metal or crystal, not both...since we are looking specifically at a Vasari player, I'd think that a 2.5-1 ratio would be more appropriate since the Vasari player is likely selling resources, not buying them...

I don't at all disagree with your conclusion...colony pods are a waste...but I know you do a lot of contributing on the forums, and I was wondering if 4.5-1 was the standard ratio used for every cost-benefit and return time analysis...

Neither did I; with the starbase cost you're looking at closer to 10000 effective credits of investment, and the payoff time for that is longer than 2 hours.  The 48 minute number I gave ignores the cost of the starbase.

Yeah, you are wrong.  The second level gives twice as much benefit as the first level... but also costs twice as much!  It's the most expensive starbase upgrade in the game, costing nearly as much as building an entirely new starbase.

The trade port upgrade is much better than the colony pods upgrade.  It costs less (1000 credits, 150 metal, 100 crystal instead of 1800/275/150), and it gives higher returns (1.6 credits per second plus trade route bonus as opposed to 1.3 credits per second).  Of course, I'd still reserve this one for expanding my trade route.  If you already have a starbase standing, then the trade port upgrade is a worthwhile addition, but don't build a whole new starbase just on this one's account...

 

Raging Amish can take credit for the 4.5:1 ratio; he was using it before I was, and I completely agreed with him that it's the best overall constant for these kinds of calculations.  It's not quite as good in the early-game where you often are selling resources, but it's very accurate in the late game where you're usually buying at least one type and rarely selling the other.

I completely disagree with your assessment of the factions.  Once you move over to a primarily trade-based economy, you will always have a surplus of credits and will need to buy one (if not both) of your resources.  In fact, I'd say Advent is in an even worse situation than TEC in this regard since they don't have any viable refinery and their extractor upgrade techs are more expensive.  Now, I will agree that Vasari usually hits trade a tad later and with their scouts can maintain a better resource income, but if they grow large enough they will also suffer this same issue.

The basic premise is that extractors get less efficient as your empire gets bigger (loyalty becomes a factor), whereas trade ports get more effecient as your empire gets bigger (trade route).  You can offset that a bit with refineries, but they have stacking issues and don't continue to improve like trade ports do as your empire expands.  The net result is that for a sufficiently large empire, credit income [b]will[/i] invariably outpace metal and crystal income.  So it's actually a fair presumption that you'll be buying a significant chunk of your resources in the late game.

 

Early game, yes.  But late-game with a mature trade network and maxed out logistics?  Not a chance.  He's buying both resources, guaranteed.

To Darvin

Im not disputing that colony pods are fairly useless thing in the game. 

But for fact I know that first colony pod purchase gives you 50 population on SB second gives you additional 75 for a total of 125. So it's not linear like you think. 2nd purchase gives you 150% compared to first one and yes it is more expensive..... so for total you get 250% compared if you buy just 1st upgrade.

I'm not sure if allegiance apply to colony pods and it would be fun to get this result but if it does not they become much more appealing...

 

This thread wasn't really colony pod usefulness discussion and we got out of posters intentions.

It was more of how to colonize planets in the quickest way, what to research, and order of building things if you play eco role in multi player games (AT START) When quick planet grabbing and good trade route + right civic upgrades are most important thing. We haven't even touched tec diplomacy ships with donation ability (which do stack on the planet) pact bonuses, How to create good trade line etc. 

Perhaps it would be wise to start a new thread and post some replays of good eco expansion if we get across one ....

I will see if i still have reply of that 365ps vs  67ps credit wise difference..... It would be good thing to see what to do and what not to do.

And Darvin as vasari if i get refineries up i never buy resources. With those my crystal and metal income gets up to 12 -15 ps each at least. Provided that i got even distribution of extractors. There was one game  that my ally had 20 metal and 12 crystal not long ago as eco player.

With good scouting and analysis of what other team is lacking I place my resources at 100% price on black market if I don't need to feed them to my allies and just wait that other team buys them.