No not at this stage.

Capitals don't need research for ability activation.

In response I can only say there are inherent limitation to the AI. If people want Dreads this is one of the best ways. There are a number of fundamental issues here

1. The AI just doesn't build a lot of capitals (have you seen it build 16 ... ever?)

2. The AI can't differentiate between capitals i.e you can't get it to preferentially build Dreads

3. Dread research would not be preferential.

The impact is on game balance. If every one gets a Dread this balances the game. One Dread every half hour does not change the game dynamics to any great extent.

Excellent tactic by the AI. You have to be more aware of the enemies placement of Dreads and use your Dreads to counter such threats. If the enemy started using orbital cannons you would be aware of their placement. All I'm saying is that tactics change with the introduction of the Dreads ...

Thanks. I've used DDS Thumbnail Viewer's before. I'm currently using '3D Photo Browser'

1. your right ive never seen the AI build 16 cap ships but ive never seen the AI survive long enough to max out its research before i lay waste to it. Also i wouldnt really know how many ships the AI has as it uses alot of cap ships all over the place fighting with various different factions at once so its impossible for me to keep track. maybe as a mod dev u might know a way?

2.Well your right here again but what about research on other mods ive seen AI does do research and if an ability isnt unlocked until the proper research is done then the AI wont use that ability until the research level is reached.

3.I have to disagree whole heartdly with this statement and the next about it not changing the game play. It does change the whole mode drastically.

Example of a game for me goes like this i tend to rush out and grab a few planets based on map layout to try to create choke points. when you do this it forces you to turtle and fortify areas and try to sustain for instance. When the enemy comes into your area within an hr and has a lvl 7 dread and lays waste to a fully upgraded station when you cant even get very far in research it upsets the balance badly. Now i know not everyone plays the same and adaptation is key. i was able to take down a few dreads but i noticed the computer AI tended to focus on them as their cap ships using them to frontal attack in pairs or triplets after an hr and half. For games that last a long time dreads every 30mins are silly and imho a bad idea. I notice they made the normal cap ships almost useless i had a 2 lvl 5 cap ships and a dread of lvl 5 came in held off a station and popped 1 of my cap ships before it fell. Now against 2 caps maybe but not this early in the game. But to see it fell a cator battleship cap ship at lvl 5 while being hit by almost 15 ships and a starbase with weapons upgraded is stupid. If the ship is going to be a power house not just an ordinary cap ship it should

A. Have no way to be upgraded I.E. you cant buy levels for it for any race at all.

B.Should just be used as a normal cap ship. I know the AI doesnt select cap ships in a controled fashion but you cant have super powered ships available from the start with almost no cost i strongly think this is bad form.

In the many many games i have played Dreads are like the pen ultimate ship next to say a titan or a mothership. Which are extremly hard to get. The point of this game is imho to build up to powerful state if u start with a dread why bother with any other ships. There isnt  any other reason they dont use fleet points they cost almost nothing and can be stronger than a station in a few levels. once cators get research up u can just buy straight to lvl 7 and blamo a fleet of super dreads. with stupid amount of fighters. I have nothing against these ships but they simply should not be obtainable out of the gate and yes they need to be research based.

Can not the skill not activate until later once the research is active then start pumping them out based on material needs? frankly there should be 1 dread using 2 cap ships crews and 100 pts of fleets so they function as well super ships. You can get them now without even having cap ship points they just auto -1 so please rethink this as there is a serious issue with the way these work atm.

Quiet_Man, who has helped here, attempted just that with no success. I have seen the AI build typically 6 caps and then spend all its logistics on frigates and cruisers.

The Dreads are 4x more powerful than a Cap ... who ever does the research first would have a huge advantage. Research is interesting but ultimately it's only is a time deterrent.

Reducing their firepower and abilities is an option or increase their build time.

Where were your Dreads when all this was happening?

Upgrades are based on the cap fleet not individual cap.

From the start the Dreads are a bit more powerful than a cap ... gaining experience changes things.

Reps cap upgrades are currently a bit over the top ... this will change.

Once again its a matter of game play and balance. If the AI builds 6 caps in a long game then you might have one in a game! With the additional requirements of research you won't see them in a game.Once again, if you introduce the Dreads later in the game the AI spends most of its logistics on frigates and cruisers, you won't see a enemy Dread produced. Whereas a human player will research and build Dreads and easily over-power the AI players.

ok i suck with the whole quote thing so here it goes im going to try to elaborate as we are coming across some intresting points. so i removed my statements and will try to respond to each one you had with further elaboration.

ok im not quite sure what exactly you are referring to quiet was testing but here is my idea and solution and from other mods ive played ive seen simliar things done.

the module skill activation you built into the station to be on a timer and also based on antimatter building is a great idea for making sure the AI does build a dread. No complaints with this idea. But the way it works i think you should reconsider. The activated skill on the cap ship building base is a an activated skill that i believe you can control with research yes? I.E. it will be there but will not be active till certain research is done.

ok so this leads to how you state dread are 4x stronger than a cap. Whoever does research first would have a huge advantage. Well um you said you wanted to keep very close to the orginal game. The whole way the game is designed is around this mind set. Whoever has the most research done first has the biggest advantage. Hence why max research can wipe the floor with less ships as they are much strong. So this is exactly what you should be looking for with Dreads. A dread is like a capship kostura cannon. Why not move planatary weapons down to low teir research. Becasue they are an ulitmate weapon like a dread or mothership or titan. These ships being more powerful need to be obtained later so that lower level  stuff gets used and it keeps a smooth flow. having dreads from start does not keep a smooth flow of the game. you could reduce thier firepower and abilities and increase thier build time but then why bother to even use them then? The whole point is that you start with capital ships all of them but most likely you will build a conlony cap first then something to support it or a battle ship with colony ships. Either way you can build a cap ship. So as you play the game you work up leveling the cap ships and gaining other cruisers or frigs as your research them.

So does it make any sense that you can build the most powerful ship ever known to that specific race but you cant yet build a flak frig or a cruiser that holds fighters. the dread needs i do stress needs to be an endgame ship  not a whole time you play ship. Something to work for and yeah if u get researched first you get stronger thats they whole point of the whole entire game. if your max research you can build kostura cannons on say 5 to 8 planets and clear a planet before you even send your fleet in for example.

as for you asking where were my dreads. Well i had 2 built and had them in different locations and as you know they move slow as molasses so i had them out of range of the battle also due to a huge bug i shut off autobuild. There is a limit to capital ship fleets so you cant build past your budget fleet size or capacity to sustain the ships. yet dreads popping out every 30 mins just -1 your cap ship with or without proper research which means there is no limitation but on the same note they take away from your ability to replace your capital ships. I would please ask you repair this bug asap and make them not only need fleet points and high cost atleast that if you say are 4x the strength of a cap ship but they should cost 4x the price. Also with no limit on cap ship numbers the AI can just keep popping them out every 30 mins subtracting from their cap ship crews regardless of if they are capable of sustaining such said crews in financial aswel as research. So this element made massive unbalance straight off. I shut mine off because i dont just want to play with dreads and nothing else.

as you stated dreads are a bit more powerful than caps and gaining experience with dreads u get the super dread option and they have more ass kicking capabilties than a fully outfitted station. I had a fully armored and upgraded station and a lvl 7 dread came in and vs the station almost wiped it out. Only reason it didnt is becasue i had cator stations so i can move and when the ships move the AI isnt as accurate so you can buy yourself time. But nothing should be able to take down a fully upgraded starbase 1v1 but that is just my opionon.

I dont believe i agree at all with your final assesment. If  its research based you will end up with a single or a few dreads much later in the game and so will the computer depending on how the compter researches and yes the comp does build alot of frigs and cap ships as ive been swarmed by so many ships its hard to keep track and 7 cap ships in a fleet or more. But the point is dread are slow as ass. You are not going to build a fleet or a bunch of those and wait 100s of years for them to swarm across the ai territory you will most likely build it and send it to locations with support fleets while you attack other places. In the end thats usually how they are used. To bad you cant give them independant jump drives like they did in eve. it was thier greatest asset and the greatest weakness. while other ships used gates/phase lanes the dreads had to jump from location to another using antimater/fuel stores and it left them unable to leave for a certain time. if they got into a battle they were stuck and unable to phase/jump out when in siege mode stuck in place. there is alot you can do with dreads i believe to make the game play better but having fleets of dreads all over the game just so the AI has them early on doesnt seem to be the answer. By all means u decide in the end but im saying from playing the mod thus far with dreads i find it much better before dreads. But i dont think they should be gotten rid of just alot of changes need to be made and tests to see what works best. Humans will always defeat the AI by researching ahead. Just like the AI can build focus on each ship in each location and spread out something a human who isnt on speed cant do.

A human who is focusing on battle isnt likely going to be focusing on 2 battles at once in 2 locations and steering ships to the best of his ability while building more ships and researching. Maybe some people think they are capable of this feat but nowhere near what a machine can do that isnt limited by not having access to everything at nano second speed. So we cant try to make the AI feel like another player we need to play on strengths and weaknesses hence why humans tend to use the advantage of researching faster.

Apparently the server didn't like my long post (not as long as ones I have just been reading though - it just crashed) So here is the condensed version:

Asteroids - I added damage and it is better. They don't destroy the militia, as they are the same affiliation, but they do attack and slow down the AI. Playing Dv2 at vicious I have noticed a respective delay in the AI planet acquisition and first contact with me. I have also seen damage done to their fleet. Better to have asteroids do damage than not - without them doing damage they are just exp fodder advancing capitals much faster than normal. You can capture a planet, but can't build while asteroids are present - and I like that too.

Balancing - gold planet. Generates WAY too much money - stack 10 ports on there and your income is over 600 a second. Add a starbase and that is another 70-80. Reduce the trade ports to a maximum of two, either by limiting there build - which may not be possible, or changing logistics slots, hold one or two ports max. I do like the 1000% bonus though. This same problem can exist on other planets with the 200% bonus as well, so maybe reduce thier trade bonus. You only need one gold planet, and you can have enough income to produce a capital ship almost every ten seconds, including buying all the resources.

I do NOT think it is unbalancing to stack 20 cultural platforms on a dyson planet though. That adds a good strategic issue.

I can move my TA starbases, I noticed in here that I was not supposed to be able to, but I can move them all over the gravity well.

Sorry all. Yes their is a bug with the E & D version of Maelstrom for the 'Dangerous Asteroids' - they don't do damage. Thanks to those who have pointed it out to me. Original versions of Maelstrom are OK.

Excellent, personally I like a lot of money!

I like Capital ships ... in a couple of minutes I could have a whole fleet!!

But seriously I'll back off the bonuses!!!

Thanks for pointing it out. I'll fix it for the next release.

@doomser1

it is a long thread but not that long. I you check for the dread discussion you will see that different options where discussed and tested.

the fixed spawning is in no way the preferred solution, but  as it seams the only one the engine can handle. The AI is build for a certain development/income rate, it does only limited saving for expensive items like capitals, so if you give it a lot resources it will just distribute them over all areas, building ridiculous long research and frigate build queues.

Also the AI has limited "understanding" of capitals, it will send a high level capital sometimes on scout missions

Your appreciation is appreciated!

Yes I got that impression ... and I don't want to damage game-play. Its a matter of us understanding what the limitations are and finding a solution.

What I meant is that if the AI builds a capital there is 1 in 6 chances of it building a Dread as there are 6 caps in total. This is a simple guess because there is no way of knowing what cap an AI decides to AI. If the AI losses caps there is a greater chance of seeing a Dread - that is if if builds a cap replacement.

Yes, this summaries the issue.

I take your point. However, in the expansion version of Maelstrom (for Original Sins) I included research for Dread abilities. The Dreads in this version of Maelstrom were an attempt to 'simulate' starbases.

Sorry this can't be done ...  as I've stated before you can't make the AI selectively build a Dread The only way to selectively create a Dread is to have an ability to spawn a it (in fact you could have this ability to spawn up to 5 ships caps, cruisers, frigates which can be weighted)

The same goes here, that is with regards selectivity. A starbase is no more selective than a capitalship factory. If you use the spawning ability to only what to assign it to one unique structure or else you would be inundated with Dreads.

It is not a bug in Maelstrom it is how the spawn ability works, can't do anything about it - that is if Dreads are created using this ability. If players where to be able to build Dreads (like in Maelstrom Expansion) then the AI will have that selectivity problem we have been discussing.

It's a bonus all players receive.

Again everyone gets the bonus.

Starbases are decimated quickly by squadrons and antimodule cruisers why not add a Dreadnought? Likewise a Dreadnought can be decimated quickly by squadrons.

Relatively, it costs the same amount as the oppositions Dreads. How much money does an empire make in 30mins. What if the cost of the Dread was aromatically siphoned from this? Answer: conceptually it would be fulfilling, practically not a great deal.

I don't agree. Slow their production (1 an hour for instance) reduce their power (/2) -two simple suggestions - make their abilities research dependent. "consider going back to the drawing board" I have implemented the Dreads in both possible ways ... there is nothing left on the drawing board, just finding the right balance or taking them out of the game.

And you are getting Dread after Dread which you can use for turtling.

Appreciated ... especially the passion part  !

Thanks Mr D,

I have been following the thread ... what Ironclad will do, apart from the 2GB limit, is unclear. Not sure who they are listening to.

Lets hope for the best!

No I haven't ... but looking forward to playing his mod. Have you played Maelstrom Expansion yet?

PS: In ManShooter's mod his ships will be balanced against his new races not the original Sins races

i got my freinds playing the mealstrom mod atm with me the pre dread one for diplo.

I couldn't find it in the change notes, but I think the replicators antimatter regeneration has been completely negated, except for the converting ability. At least with combat ships, the antimatter regen is nonexistent. With my scout ships, they have normal regen.

I guess my question is whether or not that's intentional.

Also, the Replicators' starbase is supposed to be the only one that CAN move, but currently (R2) it is the only one that DOESN'T