Smurfs

I bought Sins Trinity a few days ago, and of course started off by playing a couple of single player games. Then I figured it was time to try out the online play. I was immediately surprised by how few people were online playing, but soon realized why. I've never played a game with such a rude community. It was nearly impossible to get into a game because people will actually kick you for having never played before, calling you a "smurf". I wasn't sure what that was, so I looked it up, but apparently knowing what a smurf is makes people even more certain that you are one.

Eventually I did get into a game, against a smurf... He was the most helpful, and generally nice player I talked to. I got beaten pretty badly, but learned a lot, and he gave me some good tips.

What I would like to know is this: why is there this attitude against smurfs? Why do people even care if a good player creates a new name? To be honest, I think it is the rest of the players, not the smurfs that are destroying this game. It's a shame, because it has a huge potential to be a great online multiplayer game.

25,882 views 53 replies
Reply #1 Top

Because if players are smurfing they are hiding their true skill.

And we mostly play higher player count games 3v3 - 5v5. In order to have good enjoyable game teams need to be balanced. And if people smurf it's impossible to balance teams and in those types of games most finish in 30 min or even sooner. 

Once 1 or 2 guys die in 5v5 matches it becomes 3v5 with massive eco on better team and it is gg.....

Reply #2 Top

The concern is, like Greg said, that they'll muck up the talent balance on the teams.  I'm a crappy player, so when I smurf in these games it doesn't have a big effect since I'm a lower pick anyway.  What normally happens in the 4v4 and 5v5 games is that two players will become team captains and then draft-pick the other 8 players in a 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 order (for 5v5) or 1-2-2-1-2-1 order for (4v4) with the number being the number of the team that gets the pick so that the first captain has the first pick and the last pick and the second captain gets to pick two people immediately after the first pick.  If someone is smurfing then they could get drafted lower than they should be.  Normally captains will whisper to people they don't recognize and ask them who they are.

A few hosts don't like smurfs and will boot them out, especially if there is another player they are friends with or recognize wants to get in.  Getting booted out is part of the price you pay for smurfing.  (If you are really serious about playing, then you'll join with an established name.)  Unfortunately, like you said, it can be hard on new players sometimes because hosts will suspect them of being smurfs.  Some hosts also figure that if you don't have a player name somewhere with 30+ games that you are just too new to play in their pro game and will severely disadvantage your team.

The reason why this game has such low player counts has nothing to do with smurfing, however.  There are a number of contributing factors.  You have to go back to the game's release to understand it.  First off, when the game was released it had low player counts to begin with.  The most people I've ever seen online at once was about 280 people sometime in April or May 2008.  If a game can only garner 280 people to play it online, then online multiplayer activity is just doomed from the start.  One problem may have been the length of games and the slow pace of the early game before Quickstart was added in Entrenchment.  The game also had problems with crashes (minidumps) and desyncs.  Another huge problem was that only 15-20% of all players could host games!  I had to flash my router's firmware and learn about port forwarding (with the very generous assistance of The Monk) in order to host.  Also, if the game host quit the game or lost his connection for some reason, that would end the game 90% of the time since the game wouldn't "migrate" to a new host.  These were bad problems back in the day.  The end result is the low player counts you see today.

About 9 months after the game's release, all game updates were to be delivered over Impulse.  This angered some people who didn't want to deal with it and who presumably never played Sins online again.  It also increased the barrier for new people to come online.  It isn't as simple as just clicking "Update Game" on a menu to patch the game.  Presumably, tens of thousands of people play Sins in v1.00 or 1.05 (the last freely available patch) and have never heard of Impulse nor visited these discussion forums.  They probably click the Ironclad Online button and figure that it's a feature that was never implemented.  After all, to play Multiplayer you would click the "Multiplayer" button, right, which asks them to input an IP address.  The release of Entrenchment split up the community but it proved to be a good addition to the online game, it introduced Quikstart, and probably didn't hurt player counts much.  Diplomacy seems to have had a much more significant and noticeable effect.  Dividing the community makes it harder for people to find games for the version they are on which causes a vicious circle where fewer and fewer people want to play online.  (A whole lot more experienced players used to play it online prior to the release of Diplomacy.)

Another problem that may have plagued this game is the perception that it would take forever, say 4-5 hours or longer to play online and thus that trying to play it online would be ridiculous, so some people probably never thought to try it.

All of those reasons are why this game has low online player counts in spite of its being a great game.  I agree that smurfing, and not really the smurfing, but mostly general incivility, rudeness, and lack of cordiality, is a problem.  However, I don't think it was ever the driving force behind Sins's low online player counts.  Sins had lots of other deleterious problems.  If the player counts were as high as they should be (500-1000 people online at once) I don't think the smurfing problem would be as bad.  The pros would probably just play in games restricted for pros and clan members, and hosts who don't like smurfs would simply require that your player name have 100+ games on its record to play or require having a minimum number of wins.

 

 

 

Reply #3 Top

Anyhoo, my advice is to hang in there.  If you like Sins and think that it would be fun online, just persevere and stick with it.  Try not to take it too seriously.  Try to think of the challenge as being, not to kill your opponent, but rather to learn about the game and to improve and get better.  Playing in those 5v5s, for example, would be an excellent way to collect replays of games so that you can watch what the pro players do.  If you get knocked out of a game, spectate your remaining allies and try to understand what's going on.  Over time, if you make an effort to learn the game and get better, you'll find yourself becoming more and more solid over time.

Oh, and one more thing--keep in mind that even experienced pro players lose sometimes.  Occasionally they might get steamrolled or even lose in an embarrassing fashion and draw the ire of their other teammates.  Maybe he just made a bad strategic decision or misread the enemy or got screwed with a horrible starting spot.  It happens.  Losing is just part of playing a competitive online multiplayer game.  Ideally, if teams are always perfectly balanced, you should lose the game 50% of the time.

Reply #4 Top

Sins multiplayer definitions -101

 

HOST is GOD - he can boot you at any time for any other player that comes along. That is his right as HOST. PERIOD. If you dont like it HOST your own game and be your own GOD.

WIN/LOSS Record & Games Played Count - pretty much useless with smurfs around, but people still judge by them....but accounts with high counts get priority over noobs and smurfs. (Usually)

SENIORITY/NAME RECOGNITION - if most people in game have played with you before, or your name has a reputation of being good, your a shoe in every time, but remember we all started as noobs sometime, so we have all been kicked before, its not just you.

SMALL COMMUNITY - because there is such a small community the people that have been around and play ALOT usually know each other and want to play with each other.  You must become part of the community, you must earn your place, its kinda like pledging.

FAIR? - The WORLD aint fair. PERIOD. Why would you expect the game to be any different...............

SMURF - Either a noob/bad player trying to join a 5v5 game full of veterans OR a veteran trying to join a game, but he doesnt want to captain, and he doesnt want anyone to know his SENIORITY, smurfing is risky because you take a chance of being booted for a "KNOWN" and smurfs are only good for a few games because EVERY game auto records and people go see you no noob, and they gain SENIORITY with the smurf and the vicious cycle contiunes. 

SERIOUS - NOTHING IN SINS CHAT IS FOR REAL. PERIOD.  You can be anyone you want to on the INTERNET its annonymous.

Its so frustrating to communicate by typing on a keyboard.   I took me like 30 min to compile and type this list, and it still sucks, but at least you might get some of it.  While playin the game its even harder.  Some people dont speak English, your playing this game with people all over the WORLD, learn from every experience, but remember its nothing SERIOUS its a game.  Laugh at the madness, feed on the CRAZYNESS, when you earn your place you will understand, but you cant just jump in and expect everyone to welcome you with open arms singing "we are the world" its just not realistic with such a small community.

Reply #5 Top

WIN/LOSS Record & Games Played Count - pretty much useless with smurfs around
End of quote

The community is small enough that you will build up a reputation in time.  People don't look at the stats of guys like Greg, DirtySanchez, and Starkiller (or me, for that matter); their reputation preceeds them.

but remember we all started as noobs sometime, so we have all been kicked before, its not just you.
End of quote

I got a good win% in my first 10 games, and people kept kicking me because they thought I was a smurf.  So I couldn't get into skilled games and my win % just went higher.  It wasn't until about my 30th game (I was running like 25/30) that I finally got into skilled games on a regular basis and my win % stabilized...

 

 

My recommendation is to do your homework and learn the game, then come online when you're ready and have a few matches.  You may win, you may lose, you may get kicked from a few games, but bear with it and you'll learn the ropes.  Once people learn who you are, they'll be more willing to accept you in games.  Even players who are known beginners are often accepted into larger games, the important thing being that we know what your skill level is. 

In that respect, actually declare that you are a beginning.  Most of us don't care, and it's better that we don't speculate on whether you're a smurf.

Reply #6 Top

I played a great game against someone with over 1200 games...

no smurf...

I beyond failed....

Reply #7 Top

 

Although I've been around these forums now for (what seems like) forever, I haven't actually played an ONLINE game of SINS since back before diplomacy and entrenchment were released.  Hell I think the patch-level of vanilla SINS back then was 1.08/1.09?

I'm actually totally afraid of coming back online for an MP game of SINS, I'd be cannon-fodder for regulars these days.....I'm happy watching the me vs AI battles play out in a laser-like light show!   hehe   O:)

So rest assured, I'm one of the few "oldies" who does not have a ( an active ) smurf account.  If you should ever encounter me online.......rub your hands together in glee for an easy win will be coming your way!

the Monk

Reply #8 Top

Another thing is that if you say you are beginner people might not believe you.

Hell I played a game with a guy who was "playing stupid" declaring its his first game sins ever ..... . Anyway we played a game and 3 minutes into the game he asks what is magnetic cloud.

It turned out that that players main account is DT Tyr222 (one of the best players in SINS) which on his main account has 1200+ games played and his win/loose ratio is above 75%. After he by himself effectively killed 2 guys on our team in 40 min he comes out and says who he really is and trash talk all of us.

People like this made me retire from a game ..... but i came back because its a hell of game and i enjoy playing it too much and playing against ai even cruel or vicious is so predictable and so easy. 

For the reason above it can be that we might not believe you when you say you are newbie. Thats the reality and things mentioned above happen weekly if not daily on SINS online.

 

What I suggest to you is to get 30+ games going in smaller matches. Once your account gets to 30+ games played you can gauge player skill from his win/loose ratio....

 

PS if you ever see me online give me a shout and i will play a game with you and give you some pointers or point out obvious mistakes you make. I play as MR G.

Reply #9 Top

the community of sins is pretty much dead,   not counting the few people on the forums

since it;s release sins has pretty much been a horrible mp game,  one bug after another,  and fierce competition about it, people create smurf accounts to be able to play,  mostly cuase some dont want them for using the bugs

new people especially have a hard time  as people dont want to play with them cuase they could easily be a smurf,    this is pretty much what killed the community early on

 

becuase the community is so small you'll need to make yourself "known" personally i think its all a bunch of crap,  i'd play with anyone,  except ofcourse people that greg just described... pathetic bunch >. >..... thrashtalking..... sigh

becuase the most active of the lot apear to be the guys with 1200+ games and some of those have social skills of a 5 year old i dont play alot of mp anymore,  it just happens to much that some random guy starts flippin midgame about how he pwns everything (when using bugged units...)

try to find people you know that also have this. wether it be on sins,  another game  or RealLife    so far Friendonly games have bene much more fun to me, all the time

 

S_o_L

Reply #10 Top

You keep saying that the game has bugged units.  Now that the Illuminator bug has been squashed, what are the remaining "bugged" units?  The only one that comes to mind is the Skinatra with Scramble Bombers.  The Vasari are still not inherently overpowering and many people, including many pros, are playing TEC now in spite of the Vasari's Skinatra rush ability.  I'm tempted to start specializing in TEC myself.

Reply #11 Top

im a new player, i waited like 10 mins, then i got kicked because some guy thought i was a [DT] smurf. i actually suck and the reason why i had 10 wins and 2 losses is since i usually own my friend 1v1, i've only played like 3 real games with random people he couldve at least kicked me at the beginning instead of being an ass and waiting till the end. it think his name was Cobra or something. My name online is WazzaDuke, and if u see me play i admit i'm terrible.

Reply #12 Top

Cobra|VoW?

No loss!  I don't think he played at all.  He had a game up for about 5 hours and was AFK.

You might want to consider making a new account because you're liable to get drafted much higher than you should be which will hurt you're team.  (If you're new you should be last pick.)

Reply #13 Top

A new guy has to make a new account because of Smurfs. This system is total BS and I am glad not to be a part of it.

 

Reply #14 Top

Still, in spite of smurfing, the game is great fun in spite of occasional problems.  If you have some competitive spirit and want to play Sins at a high level, online multiplayer is your only option.

He needs to start a new account because if players see someone with a record of 12 games played, 10 wins, they're going to think, "This guy is pretty good" and he's liable to end up as a high draft pick.

Reply #15 Top

Until they get to know him.

Hell I've got 70% w/l ratio just because there isn't so many skilled games on anymore. When in reality it should be near 55%. So I get picked as first choice when there are players in game i die against like a fly smacked on the wall.

What i'm saying is that in lack of skilled players or skilled matches i should say w/l % is much higher than it should be in above average players (i'm not saying pros) and once pple get to know you and your skill even with plug pullers (100% w/l ratio) they get picked where they should be according to skill.

So I don't think he needs new account he just need to tell that his score != skill and if they dont believe him ..... He warned them so they cannot complain later on

Reply #16 Top

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 14
Still, in spite of smurfing, the game is great fun in spite of occasional problems.  If you have some competitive spirit and want to play Sins at a high level, online multiplayer is your only option.

He needs to start a new account because if players see someone with a record of 12 games played, 10 wins, they're going to think, "This guy is pretty good" and he's liable to end up as a high draft pick.
End of DirtySanchezz's quote

Oh i let people know i'm a begginer... problem is whether they believe me or not lol

Reply #17 Top

maybe the fact that quits are not counted as losses is related?

Reply #18 Top

Hello, With my own basic knowlage about this God Forsaken Community who which cant god damn fix its own wounds. Smurfs are commonly or were done by DT Clan Members. Honestly its a pain in the ass. (Do forgive me for swearing but this is a specific topic where it is a so deserved -.-)

 

And btw Wazzaduke. I didnt boot you, ICO closed the game on me. Also I wasnt talking to you. So Forgive me for something that never happened :D

Reply #19 Top

I wasnt afk smart ass

Reply #20 Top

Well I count all that is not win as loose so...

Reply #21 Top

Quoting aaa11, reply 17
maybe the fact that quits are not counted as losses is related?
End of aaa11's quote

People generally look at only two stats--Games Played and number of Wins.  Most people quit games and don't surrender because if you surrender, it screws over any remaining allies who want to keep playing.

Quoting CombatElite667, reply 19
I wasnt afk smart ass
End of CombatElite667's quote

It sure seemed like it.  I mean, you were offering up a game for a couple hours.  People would join and sit for a few minutes and then leave to check for other games.

Hello, With my own basic knowlage about this God Forsaken Community who which cant god damn fix its own wounds. Smurfs are commonly or were done by DT Clan Members. Honestly its a pain in the ass. (Do forgive me for swearing but this is a specific topic where it is a so deserved -.-)
End of quote

[DT] players don't have a monopoly on smurfing and smurfing has been around since long before Sins of a Solar Empire.  Smurfing isn't what killed this game anyway.

Reply #22 Top

IF Smurfing didnt kill the game then what did

Reply #23 Top

IF Smurfing didnt kill the game then what did
End of quote

I'll copy what I wrote in Reply #2 and highlight some items for you:

The reason why this game has such low player counts has nothing to do with smurfing.  There are a number of contributing factors.  You have to go back to the game's release to understand it.  First off, when the game was released it had low player counts to begin with.  The most people I've ever seen online at once was about 280 people sometime in April or May 2008.  If a game can only garner 280 people to play it online shortly after its release, then online multiplayer activity is just doomed from the start.  One problem may have been the length of games and the slow pace of the early game before Quickstart was added in Entrenchment.  The game also had problems with crashes (minidumps) and desyncs.  Another huge problem was that only 15-20% of all players could host games!  I had to flash my router's firmware and learn about port forwarding (with the very generous assistance of The Monk) in order to host.  Also, if the game host quit the game or lost his connection for some reason, that would end the game 90% of the time since the game wouldn't "migrate" to a new host.  These were bad problems back in the day.  The end result is the low player counts you see today.

About 9 months after the game's release, all game updates were to be delivered over Impulse.  This angered some people who didn't want to deal with it and who presumably never played Sins online again.  It also increased the barrier for new people to come online.  It isn't as simple as just clicking "Update Game" on a menu to patch the game.  Presumably, tens of thousands of people play Sins in v1.00 or 1.05 (the last freely available patch) and have never heard of Impulse nor visited these discussion forums.  They probably click the Ironclad Online button and figure that it's a feature that was never implemented.  After all, to play Multiplayer you would click the "Multiplayer" button, right, which asks them to input an IP address.  The release of Entrenchment split up the community but it proved to be a good addition to the online game, it introduced Quikstart, and probably didn't hurt player counts much.  Diplomacy seems to have had a much more significant and noticeable effect.  Dividing the community makes it harder for people to find games for the version they are on which causes a vicious circle where fewer and fewer people want to play online.  (A much larger number of more experienced players used to play it online prior to the release of Diplomacy.)

Another problem that may have plagued this game is the perception that it would take forever, say 4-5 hours or longer to play online and thus that trying to play it online would be ridiculous, so some people probably never thought to try it.

All of those reasons are why this game has low online player counts in spite of its being a great game.  I agree that smurfing, and not really the smurfing, but mostly general incivility, rudeness, and lack of cordiality, is a problem.  However, I don't think it was ever the driving force behind Sins's low online player counts.  Sins had lots of other deleterious problems.  If the player counts were as high as they should be (500-1000 people online at once) I don't think the smurfing problem would be as bad.  The pros would probably just play in games restricted for pros and clan members, and hosts who don't like smurfs would simply require that your player name have 100+ games on its record to play or require having a minimum number of wins.

 

Reply #24 Top

All of those reasons are why this game has low online player counts in spite of its being a great game. I agree that smurfing, and not really the smurfing, but mostly general incivility, rudeness, and lack of cordiality, is a problem. However, I don't think it was ever the driving force behind Sins's low online player counts. Sins had lots of other deleterious problems. If the player counts were as high as they should be (500-1000 people online at once) I don't think the smurfing problem would be as bad. The pros would probably just play in games restricted for pros and clan members, and hosts who don't like smurfs would simply require that your player name have 100+ games on its record to play or require having a minimum number of wins.
End of quote

This make sence :)

Reply #25 Top

It is pro-smurfing hyperbole to say that it has NOTHING to do with it.  There have been many that have said quite the opposite.  It is also hyperbole to say that its the sole reason for the lacking online community.  In my opinion, it is one of many factors but certainly more than a minor factor even.  If you expect to be or are treated like crap when you are just trying to have fun or stacking the team to the advantage of the smurf, that can certainly be a deterrent to maintaining more of a presence online.  Just because you and your other DT brethren(for the most part) like to smurf doesn't negate its impact on most everyone else.

 

[_]-Greyfox