Quar look at replay by end of game I could have stopped spamming skirms and teced to subs I think I had 4k in the bank.

Are replays brokin because my replay doesnt work?It md about 45 min.

Ye ye ye nothing to do bla blal changing reality to your shape bla bla.

We were talking about advent beeing underpowered. i Proved they rnt

Nowl u ll change your argument i beat u with spam and u could do something that u didnt do (obviously u didnt have enogh resources cause u would 100% do it if u could)

This is 1 thing that i agree with u. ADVENT R BORING.  not underwoiwered,boring. Thats y i play vasari.

And i made lums, at the end when it suted me , but still booring as fuck.

U killed my cap only cause i got greedy and tryed to finish yours carrier. If i didnt  get $$ in my eyes u wouldnt kill it.

And i killed your cap too, 1:1.

So to get to the point. Be a man, say u lost and stop defending lost cose.  STOP TALKING ADVENT R UNDERPOWERED

Or be loyal to Grey and keep saying white is back (sorry White, not talking about u :P) and black is white and bia rnt gay

armour of vas scramble bomber = 5...thats more than flak. Thats partly why fighters aren't a viable answer these days.

+ skirantra repair cloud can heal strikecraft....

maybe part of solution should be to lower the armour of vasari bomber to say, 3. that might make fighters viable at least before vasari flak come out.

Only way to counter double skirantra/kanrak army or double skirantra/scout spam army is to flak spam as any other race, and/or scout/garda/lf spam. Get 40 flak early and scramble is out of the picture.

Quar no where in any of our convo did we discuss a tier 0 rush.It was all about mid game and late game.Advent is my fav race to play but you cant play them without spamming tier 0 units which as you stated is boring and not fun.Scouts are not combat units they are scouts hence the name SCOUT.I was gearing up for a lrf battle because I thought you were gonna school me on all the cool ilum and tkpush tricks that you stated would work against vas.I have known for a long time that advents tier 0 rush is the most powerful.In that game you had more planets and I didnt get any neutrals.You had you ally build a sb at my roid.I almost beat with all that.Your ally killed my desert long before your final push and all i needed was 2 labs for subs so yes I could have had them.No point in me trying to beat you when Im down 3 planets and your ally was moving to my ice.All vas needs is a nerf to scramble.I have never seen anyone but you say scramble is balanced.2 halys loaded with fighters should beat 2 skirantra with scramble.I play this game to have fun.Whats fun about this game is winning at least half the time,having some competition,and using tricks and tecs of races to win.Playing a race where all you do is grab a planet and build factories and pump out scouts is not fun.You like vas cause you use tricks like sb and overseer or double scramble or subs and mines. Well as advent I like to use caps synergies and diff ships too.

So now u want to change the balance.

Ok but u picked wrong side. If u nerf scramble bombers, vasa wont have any replay to advent and tec spamm and will be weekest race.

If u want what u want stop trying to nerf other races, and remove spamming abilities, then rebalance.

Cause right now u r crying: woo advent r os underpowered and i proved they rnt so u bring argument they r borking. sure they r but if u want to make then interesting, sugest changes that will move form spamming to synergy and leave vasari alone.

People, u must understand. Vasa rnt overpowered sure they have their advantages and dissadvantages, they r better late game while weeker early game. That haw sisn works, there r advantages and dissadvantages. If u cry something is overpowered cause without using all your advantages u cant beat it u r a moron.

People play vasari cause its fun. Best players play vasari cause with good micro its mega fun.

Advent and tec dont need sucha a good micro, i say they r easy mode ,

if u will nerf vasari as u keep crying about leaving tec and advent spamming abilities vasa will blow as they did in lums time. Cause people will keep spamming. even u spam while playing tec.

Wonder why all u crying   lums spammers never screamed : nerf l lums

U even sad i was paranoic, and JJ tests were fake

Sugesting 1 hellcion with fighters should keep up with 2 scintras with bombers is retarded. Its like sugesting to give lums back their bugged damage.

And now be the man, take that defeat with dignity and stop crying about vasa nerf cause u r loosing rests of your creditability with your excuses

AND LEAVE VASARI ALONE

PS: U talking about sb but those Sb were only to your advantage, ill even sugest rat was colaborating. all they did was free xp to your caps , bouth were blown right after building. waste.

Ok, I might agree with you that vasari is not necessarily op, I can't abide by your assertion that scramble bombers is not op compared to it's counterparts. The current version of scramble bombers is able to field so many bombers that vasari doesn't need to even invest in carriers. Call it a nerf or whatever but SB needs tweaked to at-least keep the number of bombers within reason and get the skirantra back in some balance with the other two carrier caps. Vasari experience per fleet supply is also severly out of wack and needs to be set right.

But your arguments have merit to some degree so lets look at past nerfs to advent and get them re-instated. For example, lets have the Advent Mothership's Malice ability go back to having an infinite target count. This alone might be enough to make advent competitive again.

Also, lets fix the broken mechanics in sins of channelled abilities that target a single unit (Same unit gets targetted with non-stacking abilities). This would support all races that have channeled abilities included the Subverter and Subjegator.

lol wtf omg listen to yourself.That sb took dps away from my fleet lol.Ya i told rat to put a sb up in my well.your talking nonsense.

Listen quar I dont care if we nerf tier 0 spamming to balance.I dont tier 0 spam unless am forced to like you did to me.The point is to make ALL races fun and balanced to a degree.Why should vas be the only fun race to play?I have stated other things need to be addressed in other posts like fighters.They are non existent and the reason for rampant lrf spamming which I also dislike but that is the nature of this patch.I hate scout spam much more than just spamming lrf .At least lrf you must invest in mil to get. Not get civ and get planets and spam scouts.I would like to see this game in a state where all military units can be fielded with some success.Dont even try to tell me fighters work when flak around.They die much faster than they kill anything.Flak can be fielded 2x faster then carriers.

I dont remeber saying jj tests were fake.

The other reason I prolly spammed javs(i guess what u are talkin bout) is its the only way to deal with skirantra.

I didnt suggest 1 haly keep up with 2 skirantra.I suggest 1v1 or 2v2.

For some reason you think I want all of vas nerfed but you are wrong.Scramble just needs a minor nerf it should not own all caps and sb in every matchup.Bring back fighters and I would be happy.

Kostura is another subject.Only thing keeping it inline is its not spammed everygame like skirantra and kanracks.

You think my credit is going down?Lets see.Everyone who thinks scramble is perfect please post it.Those who say its fine we just need to buff all other caps dont apply because I really dont think that will happen.I actually dont really think we will see another patch.

This is very much the case right now.  Currently a Skirantra with assailant support is basically impervious to any reasonable number of low-tier units except the Javelis LRM, which has the sheer power to break through.  This thing is giving TEC a competitive rush-game that can beat Vasari in a field battle.  I'd say with a favourable start location, TEC can be even stronger than Vasari on the rush.  However, unlike Vasari, TEC have a very weak late-game and really don't have anything substantial to look forward to after the hoshiko (at least from a front-liner's perspective; pocket TEC is another story entirely).  Once Vasari pulls any mid-game combos, the field is tilted in his favour, and it just keeps going.

I think Vasari vs TEC is about balanced in the early-game; it slightly favours TEC in my opinion, but this can be map dependent.  Perhaps it's not the sweet spot, but it's close enough.  The problem I have is that Vasari outpaces TEC into the mid-game and totally crushes them in the late-game.  They only need to hit some good techs or even just a level 5 Skirantra to blunt TEC's edge and they just keep going after that and getting stronger.  However, Advent vs Vasari isn't even in the ballpark.  If you win as Advent against Vasari, you seriously outplayed your opponent or he was map-gimped.  I don't take anyone seriously who claims that Advent vs Vasari is anywhere near balanced. 

Well, most caps could use a buff regardless, but scramble does need a rework.  As I've said before, lower both its cooldown and duration.  This will be a double-edged change that allows you to replace bomber squads faster, but increases the antimatter cost of doing so and will result in the bombers more quickly fading away if you ever stop scrambling.

 Thats what i love in people. No matter what crushing argument  i use, they keep saying like mantra : nerf scramble bombers.

U r wasting your talents,  u should be politicians. In politics ability of turning over or ignoring arguments is priceless. In here, its garbage.

Stop looking at sinbgle ability cause this will make all 3 races merged into 1. Will u have fun when everuthing will be equal? Look at race as whole, early game, rush ability defence ability sb ability , pacts , superweepon everything.

What advent needs is ability to keep its battle ball together and allive. They need to fix useles repair support cruser , tune it. and thats about it. maybe some tweeks in pacts.  or delicate change to cap ability that reduce sc dmg, nothing more or less.

What sins needs in general is to buff HC. In several different metods, make them strongeror make sc stronger or make sc stronger or make bombers weeker or... easy to say but all those changes will affect whole game play. and must be tested. Devs have limited tests abilities , we would have to participate. and considering it takes about 2 months of canstant playing to properly test all changes, its really very sensitive case.

And darvin, sorry but your arguments shows your lack of skill and tec nowledge.

Tec has best pacts late game, nothing can match that.

God sometimes i think there should be iq test before u can write on forums

I think its impossible to reason with quar based on stuff HE  says even

Quar I think if fighters were made to have the endurance vs flak that bombers do then that would be a buff to hc in itself.Maybe they could use more I not sure at this point been a long time since I even used them due to endless bomber spam late game.

Quar scramble is out of control.2 caps can field like 30-40 bombers thats like freakin 20 carriers!!!!No cap in game can deal with that.Its way out of control.Caps can be unique without being in god mode.The dominance of the field against enemy caps is to great of an advantage.When we fought your cap couldnt even fly by my fleet without turning and escape in time.I think I only had like 15 kanracks too.

I think they need to nerf all scouts by uping supply for them by 1 or 2 even.

Darvin your proposed change for skirantra doesnt sound great to me.2 scramble will now be able to spam bombers faster to snipe caps faster.They wont last as long but wont have to.Just make more am to use ability.

This is an indirect way of nerfing scramble anyway.

I am all for a buff to their support cruiser only 1 prob.Its way way to late game.Its so expensive to get dominas subs.I think its same tier as subverters.

The diplomacy pacts are all ouut of whack.Its completely onesided for tec and vas to merge.Tec and vas merge to become voltron defenders of the universe and advent merges with anyone to be et an ugly lil thinggggg trying to escape.

Now where did I say nerf?  I said rework.  IMO the ability still has some fundamental weaknesses that are only being masked by the sheer quantity of bombers it can deploy.  It got a buff in 1.19 for a reason, and just because it went too far in a specific direction doesn't mean I want it reverted to the near useness state it was in before.  I want scramble to remain a potent opener, but I don't want it to remain the opener to the exclusion of all others.

The problem with scramble is its long buildup time; it takes 90 seconds to reach its full bomber capacity.  Unless you started scrambling over a minute before battle starts, this means the ability really doesn't start to have a full impact until your strike craft are already somewhat depleted.  Ordinarily this keeps it in check, and even somewhat on the weak side.  However, if it can reach its critical mass, these bombers just become overwhelming by sheer number and you won't be able to whittle them away.  My proposal is to take the edge off of this particular strength, but at the same time addressing the weaknesses that hold it back in other ways.

In that sense, my target numbers would be something around a 15-25 second cooldown (from 30 seconds) and a duration of about 60 seconds (from 120).  This actually increases the power of the ability in the first minute of battle, and also makes replacement bombers that much more quickly, but makes it more difficult to sustain large swarms for extended periods.  I believe this will better suit its concept as a "scramble" ability rather than its current application as a "overwhelming pressure" ability.  It may even be a net buff at the lower levels when you don't have the antimatter to scramble constantly anyways.  Certainly if bombers get a nerf the treatment here should be accordingly more generous.

I was actually one of the strongest proponents of the scramble bombers buff back in 1.181, and I still believe it was very necessary.  The ability back then was roughly on par with stuff like gauss railgun; sure, you could use it, but it's a waste of your antimatter when a much better ability is sitting next door.  I'd be heartbroken if, after all this, it was nerfed back into oblivion.  I want a patch that does for scramble what 1.18 did for Adept Drone Anima; turning it into a viable ability that can be a balanced part of your fleet without overshadowing the other options.  If scramble

Actually I've weighed in on a wide variety of issues, not all of which on the Vasari side of the equation.  I actually tend to agree that this isn't the biggest issue (although it's one that still needs to be addressed).  Scramble is a nice ability to rail against since we have a wide selection of other abilities against which to compare it, but Vasari's issues are more holistic; it's a combination of all of their strengths that creates the broader problem. 

Unfortunately, I don't think anything short of entirely new abilities is going to help.  No amount of tweaking is going to turn the Domina into an answer to Vasari's late-game situation.  I do agree, however, that the early-game issues are mostly on Advent's side, not Vasari's.  Phase missiles hit a little hard, but I can deal with that if I actually had some better opener options.

I think if bombers were nerfed (either directly or indirectly via a fighter buff) that would be enough for Advent and TEC HC's.  The Vasari HC issue is more delicate, mainly because they have to stray from the phase missile path to use them.  I don't want to see phase missiles nerfed to mediocrity, but at the same time I want Vasari to have a good reason to explore other options.

Totally in agreement; back in the summer we had a mod running where we would test ideas like these.  It was very interesting and we developed some deeper insights into the game.  Some things didn't work out so well, others worked out great, and I think it did a lot for our understanding of the game's balance. 

In a support role, TEC is awesome.  Fighting side-by-side with Advent or Vasari they're sheer muscle can be brutal, and I'm well aware of those excellent pacts.  The problem is, they're nothing but muscle and in the late-game.  Excellent economy, excellent damage/durability for cost, great pacts, but a very scant selection of special abilities that actually scale well into the late game, and most require level 5 or 6 capital ships.  If they're trying to stand alone, they don't stand a chance.  If you're carrying an early-game advantage in terms of numbers, tech level, capital ship level, or even just a little bit of momentum you can pull it off.  All things equal?  TEC has nothing left at this point to match the more brutal fleet-killing abilities.

As I said the other day in another thread, Cielos are great.  The problem is, they're a unit that grants +40% damage when the other factions have ways to prevent you from dealing any damage whatsoever.  TEC has an awesome rush and pressure game, but their solo options are very limited in the late-game if the opponent gets a chance to consolidate.  I'd like to reiterate that TEC is just fine in a pocket position or when it's side-by-side with a non-TEC ally.  It's when they need to stand alone (such as a 1v1) that I have a problem.

Darvin i dissagree. u cant have anything and muscle means a lot. If u want to be subtele, play vasa.

And i dissagree Tec has problem on 1v1, cause theyr eco superirity allow them outspamm everything.

Mindns  buffing, or should i say fixing advent support cruser might also move him 1-2 lab earlier.

I like when u finaly sad it, that advent is a problem, not vasa. So leave pls scramble bombers alone, cause it wil screw vasa-tec abalnce and try to focus on advent problems.

Its not lums,   nor scouts, its lack of healing abilities, and by healing i mean shield healing ( excluding progen)

Advent r shield race, but everything exept progen heal HP insteed of shield. Also advent dont have  ability protecting against SC.  Their hangars has mist sc, but no other weepon like tec or vasari, their cap also has weecest protecting ability compare to magnetise ir even kol albility not to mention korthul.

Also pacts blows

This r the issues that need to be adresed, not scramble bombers. Cause it u will nerf it, vasa will be back to sb everything in early game and screwed.

PS minds 2 scintra alt lv can scramble34 bombers as my memory serves me well. Have u ever seen 2 lv 10 scintras?

Usualy we r talking about 2 lv 2-4 tah gives u 16 bombers. not constantly , only periodycaly. While 2 hellcions scramble 10 + 2x push constantly So stop exagerating,  control your fear

And again, u had much more then 30 assai and when u kill my cap at least 20 shooted him, so it wasnt your caps

I want Scramble Bombers fully reverted to the 1.18 version, it was useful even then, though it had to be combined with repair for Vasari to gain superiority in strikecraft.  The current version is completely skill-free.

Pacts might be an issue, but if they are then you have to explain why.  However most of the elements of the second expansion were just rubbish, so I'm prepared for pacts to be.  The TEC envoy cruiser was as bad as Scramble Bombers at one point, if they keep Scramble Bombers as it is they should restore that TEC nerf.  Who cares about proportion, lets just go for it, TEC want their charity money.  Otherwise TEC do not have any economic superiority to be able to spam units unless they are left alone long enough to spam starbases, which only happens in a large team game.

5s mean nothing for balance.  If you want to prove what the current balance is, play a series of 1v1s on a non-random map and provide replays.  When Quar mentions that his ally was spamming starbases to help out his attack you get the impression that he might not be entirely serious with his 'proof.' 

Everyone is right, in that the game isn't working well enough that a few quick fixes to Scramble, or pacts, or anything else will get us to balance.  However it's up to the better players to set about producing some top level replays, as any half-decent RTS has.  Otherwise the players have made no contribution whatsoever.  

So what?  Armor is just equivalent to an increase in the amount of hull.  About a 5% increase for each level of armor.

I want Scramble Bombers reverted to 1.18's maximum amount of bombers at each level.  Keep the ability to spawn 2 or 3 bombers at a time... just create less total bombers by reducing their duration slightly, or increasing cooldown.  I, also, don't want to mess with both.  Darving has been wrong about Scramble Bombers for a loong time, and I've learned to ignor most of his comments. 

I don't see why you all are bothering to argue with Quar.  He is just trolling at this point.  He apparently knew better than to use illums(or anything else for that matter) that he loves to talk shit about against a vasari.  I have maintained the only possible response to a vasari early rush for advent is disc/scout spam which is shit.  Scramble is OP and even he knows it.  He won't admit it no matter how much you try to convince otherwise. 

[_]-Greyfox

I think armour also affects how effective certain weapon types are on certain units?

It should generally be easier to field repulse than subverters with disable. (5 labs compared to 7 labs). Tho again, that can depend on how many neuts on map. These days repulse hardly used.

Mainly cuz it's fun. His posts are interesting to read and then decipher what he is trying to say.

Im not troling .  I  proved that advent has strong answer for vasari. If u dont like it "cause its shit" i give a shit about your  opinion cause now your r mr " im special i dont need arguments"

If u want to nerf scramble bombers, i want to nerf advent and tec spamming abilities.

And  btw to have an opinion u should at least get to know what r u talking about from bouth sides, but it seems u r too stoned.

PS your only possible responce is shit too.  looks like  lums nostalgia.

lol ok even if it was 20 which I think was 15.Your cap was heading to the south to jump.My fleet was near the edge of the well in the south.When your cap was passing roid I told fleet to attack it and it died before it could jump out.It didnt need to turn and was already at max speed and still did not survive even getting close to 15-20 skirantra.Other thing was I was spamming heal on my caps and not bombers.I would not have even had to attack with my fleet if I was spamming bombers.Now you finally realise the futility in advent vs vas.

So now its crappiest of game.Before you said it was great.

So I was right.

Quar is not interested in improving the game only keeping every advantage no matter what for himself.Like smurfing and stacking which he does regularly.Everything he says about advent contradicts the way he actually plays them and says its fine.

Quar I didnt have neutrals and you had more planets than me in that game.I was expecting you to school me on awesome ilums,tkpush and not trash cheese rush tier 0.I was expecting you to back up all the nonsense you talk smack about but you didnt.The game would have gone far diff because I know trashy cheese tier 0 rushing is stronger than mil early game.Even still I could have beat you if I would have got subs which I could have.You post a replay and talk about how good and right you when you didnt back up anything you said whatsoever.I have never played a strategy game where the only way to win is to spam the scout unit of the game.

I watched the replay up until the hour mark when JB had lost his home and the game was effectively over.

JB had the start I always get when I'm not roided, with the one roid and the volcanic and surrounded, but Polnar on one side and Fresh Apricot on the other didn't have much more.  They got feed from SB_Rat, however, and Polnar was able to hold off Auqia while JB went down to Apricot.  SB_Rat expanded quickly, gave his allies about three times the resources of the opposing pocket Terrence, then made a fleet and began to defeat Terrence. 

Minds and Quar were stalemated at Minds roid throughout, with one SB_Rat starbase making a brief appearance.

I'm not sure why Minds played as he did, I always tell new players to take planets while advancing towards the enemy, and if Minds had done that he could have taken the two ice planets away from Quar, then later gone back for the ice on the other side and maybe the desert.  The desert might have been useful for labs but it was never developed by Minds, and taking two ice planets before Quar could get there would have left Quar with the usual miserable combination of volcanic and roid.

The classic counter to Quar's flak and scouts would be the starbase yet Minds didn't use a starbase at all.  There were scarcely any defences at the roid, turrets are good against tier 0 at roids.  The fleet composition he ended with was overwhelmingly skirmishers.  Most Vasari hate skirmishers and deploy a starbase instead.  If you have sacrificed so much for space to tech, why not tech?  Also he only had 2 Skirantras rather than 3.

Not that I play Vasari well, I played Vasari once in 1.19 when I had to be random and it came up, however the major problem with this as a replay was that it was over early and for the rest of the game Minds seemed to be baiting Quar to produce illuminators, rather than there being any serious play.  I question why he went back at the start of the game though, to take planets on the side away from Quar.  

We need proper 1v1 balance replays.  This 4v4 proves nothing.  

Quar wants continued vasari dominance.  He is not interested in balance.  Although I play strictly advent, I would prefer balance(which I am doubtful will occur at this point) than something in advent favor.  Even when advent was favored in previous patch, I advocated an end to something they were good at which was namely tier 0 spam.  They are still pretty good at it post nerf and I have at times had to use it despite hating it.  Against early vasari that is pretty much the only worthwhile option which is why quar did it in his game against minds apparently.  Any other course of action is a probable loss for the advent in the early rush against a good vasari player.  Even with it, it can be iffy.  Vasari have it easier.  There is no question about it.  If  scramble or the skirantra in general was not overpowered, we wouldn't see you spamming 3 skirantra in games quar.  Carrier caps period are OP.  It is so rare to not have carrier caps on the front that if I see something else I assume they are a noob and 95% of the time I would be right to assume that. 

Personally I don't give a crap about illums much less have nostalgia about them.  I liked it better in original sins when carrier cruisers and fighters were king.  LRF were limited but you still had to have them.  Everything had a use at that point and you couldn't go too heavy on just 1 thing.  I would prefer to have a little bit of everything in a fleet.  Everything having its use and its counter but go too heavy on one thing and you were doomed.  All this back and forth may be totally useless.  We have not heard anything about balancing in quite some time and I am not sure it would be worth it to even try for the small remaining fan base.  Only multiplayer really cares about balance unless its so crazy as to be noticeable to the single player segment.  The AI does not take advantage of strengths or weaknesses.  So you are looking at maybe 100 people if you are feeling generous.  The post on the main page leaves some small shred of hope about it but they did not mention balance on it at all.  We shall see how things turn out I guess. 

[_]-Greyfox

Now u r talkign Grey. i Agree ALL  carrier caps need to be tune down but all not scintra and advent need some buff in late game. I even sugested change but u seem to skip it totaly.

The fact that it will be hard to convince devs to make some changes to all races, doesnt mean we shouldnt try it,

But for nerfing a single ability-NO NO AND NO AGAIN

Quar says a lot of right stuff and it looks like he is interested in a game  with fun and balance,but:

When it comes to vasari he admits that they are hes favored race ( he  uses skirantra/other cheese) and at the same time argues about nerfing most cheesy ability......which makes it obvious that he is interested in balanced and fun game just for vasari,not the other races.