Proletari Proletari

Counters to vasari uberness.

Counters to vasari uberness.

In a recent game I've faced a player who effectively spammed "scramble bomber" from 3 carriers and brought bomber number to a total of 40 (I was stunned) while not being low on mana.Carriers were of lvl's 4 and 5 and it was my fault bringing them that high - but that argument doesnt answer the main question:

What can be done to cost effectively counter vasari skirantra spam

(assailants are not a problem.)

 

My thought's are:

*flak is a low cost effect because bombers are rebuild for low cost while still harming your fleet

*LRF or LF are not fast enouph while also being easy to counter by vasari assailants - or simply kited by carrier's

*combination of the 3 above could work but sufficient quantity is very expensive compared to countered vasari fleet.

*in a good case you would aim hes fleet while absorbing damage with a capital ship(and getting it out alive in time) - but that happened just once for me.

*in any case vasari has an option to buy himself time with kiting/sb building while slowly draining your fleet with free bombers

 

please post anything you think about the topic

54,178 views 114 replies
Reply #76 Top

For some reason, I'm thinking Stardock officially hosted the Final Frontiers mod for Gal Civ II...don't know anything about the mod or what had to go on for that to happen and that's stardock, not ironclad...I'm not sure on this, but would the actual action of hosting a mod be up to Stardock or Ironclad?  I'm thinking Stardock, but I'm not sure...and after all the bashing on the Devs lately, somehow I have a hard time seeing anything hosted by the community...

If anyone is able to get any decent balance mod officially hosted by impulse, you will be my hero...seriously, you will beat out Gandhi, George Clooney, and Samuel L. Jackson and be my personal hero for...well, until sins 2 comes out....

Reply #77 Top

Well my thoughts were if you cant beat them using power or numbers use another method. Spreading culture, attacking a different planet or even have them assault you and fight on your own turf. Or even better, with TEC you can build ships in a blink of an eye with research, wither away the vasari with numbers and replace lost ships. Advent, contaminate there worlds with culture and drop their income to submission. The devs gave us so much, lets use them.

Reply #78 Top

Quoting silverion23, reply 77
Well my thoughts were if you cant beat them using power or numbers use another method.
End of silverion23's quote

 

Hehe.

 

Spreading culture,
End of quote

 

Until they blow up your media buildings along with everything else -- you can't beat them with power or numbers, remember?

 

attacking a different planet
End of quote

 

Phase Stabliizers.  The Vasari are faster than you.  Always.

 

or even have them assault you and fight on your own turf.
End of quote

 

Except you can't beat them using power or numbers, so where the battle takes place is a bit inconsequential.

 

Or even better, with TEC you can build ships in a blink of an eye with research, wither away the vasari with numbers and replace lost ships.
End of quote

 

Until they blow up your frigate factories because you can't beat them with power or numbers.

 

Advent, contaminate there worlds with culture and drop their income to submission. The devs gave us so much, lets use them.
End of quote

 

No, really, they will blow up your media structures, and you'll be dead thrice over before you can even think of putting down enough deliverance engines to revolt a planet.

Reply #79 Top

OK I played now as Vasari (Random -Medium Large (6 Player, 32 Planets, unfair) and fought a Battle vs TEC on his Homeplanet.

Me:

Skirmisher x58

Evacuator x1

Assailant x47

Sentinel x10

Overseer x28

Desolator x1

 

TEC KI:

Javelis x114

Cobalt x58

Sova x1

Dunov x1

 

In the End:

Me: 0

He:

Javelis 47

Akkan x2

Cobalt x9

(OK he had 2 Repair Platform on his planet too) edit: But instead he had no hoshis, but I had 28 repair-ships...

 

Somewhere I read that 1 Assailant matches 3 Javelis. Can't be so true... I should play & win as always as TEC in further games...

Reply #80 Top

Somewhere I read that 1 Assailant matches 3 Javelis. Can't be so true...
End of quote

Not sure what the fully upgraded numbers are, but un-upgraded 50 supply of Javalis is nearly equal to 50 supply of Assailants un-upgraded. Read this to see why phase missile upgrades matter so much.

rather indepth phase missle examination. ยป Forum Post by Pbhead

Reply #81 Top

Ah...I remember that thread, definitely one worth reading...good link Zombie...

Without upgrades, LRMs and kanraks are fairly comparable (though some claim LRMs are better)...but, even with a few upgrades, kanraks quickly dominate all other ships in the game save Vasari bombers....

CylonHunter, I don't mean to be mean but that is a rather unfair comparison between TEC and Vasari...

First off, since the AI ended with 2 akkans (but didn't start with any) I'm assuming you didn't bother to destroy his factories...so, that right there means he's constantly building ships while you weren't building any?  You may want to clarify how construction affected both of your forces...

Second, your fleet composition was more skirmishers than assailants, so I hardly see how you can make a judgement about assailants and LRMs...your enemy had a huge amount of LRMs and no support, flak, or carriers, so there is absolutely no reason to have brought in skirmishers...not only were LFs the wrong ship type but skirmishers are the weakest LF in the game (normally inconsequential since LFs in general aren't that useful)...

I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but the DPS of a kanrak with fully upgraded PMs against an Advent capital ship (particularly a high level one buffed by friendly culture) is probably 3+ times more than the DPS of a fully upgraded LRM...I would keep in mind that kanraks use more fleet supply, so that is actually only twice as much damage...

Again, I don't know the numbers but the link by ZombiesRus5 goes to a good thread on PMs...definitely something worth checking out....

 

Reply #82 Top

OVERSEERS ARE NOT VERY GOOD AT HEALING REGULAR FRIGATES BUT RATHER SHIPS WWITH HIGH HP like caps or a sb.So having that many was a waste.You should have got subs with disable and seen how that went.You would only need 10-15 to disable the entire fleet until it was dead.

Reply #83 Top

Quoting Qu4r, reply 56
Do u want to know why flaks r better against fighters then bombest? in great shortcut, its Cykur fault:)

Once upone time when sins universe was young and full of noobs  Cykur faced a dev, dont remember who exactly and used carreirs against lrfs fleet, and he anihilated it.

Then suddenly carrer got nerfed, forst, the speed reduce, then sc replenish and armor against lfs, then flaks got more effective against all sc.

But, when all carrers become obselote, case fe flaks made u fighters and bombers proof,  it was changed so flaks stayed as effective against fighters but much less agaist bombers.

There were aloso a lot of crying on the forum about carreir ubeness but, at alest  u had to  be good at micro to pawn with tem.

Flaks r non-micro easy mode

If u will change flaks to be good against bombers and useless against fighters, it will move the balance from lrf to lfs and HC.

 

Minds, i couldnt agree more. Spamming is evil. I hate it, but i hate to loose even more.

I think the only answer to this is increasing penalty for every fleet level and incresing  basic differences in units but i really dont know if it will work, cause  unfortunately,  numbers are better then quality whith is very sad
End of Qu4r's quote

 

I was in that game.  Blair (the dev) went lums (when they were still bugged) against Cykur and Cykur completely killed all the lums by kiting his carries (pre speed nerf of the carriers with single sc only).  This resulted in Blair reducing the speed for all carriers next patch

Reply #84 Top

The last people who should be balancing a game, in any game, are those developing it. O:)

 

:fox:

Reply #85 Top

Quoting Kitkun, reply 84
The last people who should be balancing a game, in any game, are those developing it.

 

End of Kitkun's quote

 

Devs playing the game more online may enlighten them on the most used strategy and therefore can nerf that strategy in order to promote other viable strategies.  Human are creatures of habit and if they dont use certain tactics they may never think it was possible.

Reply #86 Top

Quoting JohnJames, reply 83



 

I was in that game.  Blair (the dev) went lums (when they were still bugged) against Cykur and Cykur completely killed all the lums by kiting his carries (pre speed nerf of the carriers with single sc only).  This resulted in Blair reducing the speed for all carriers next patch
End of JohnJames's quote

This was long ago when it was still vanilla that was played(I would almost definitely say it was before entrenchment).  I am wanting to say it was vanilla 1.10 was the version.  You do not know how long illuminators were bugged since you only discovered it yourself post diplomacy.  Nerfing carrier cruisers at this time was a bad idea due to them having a definite counter and nothing being too terribly uncounterable.  It was a foolish move to go illums against fighter spam.  A few very vocal forum people along with this game resulted in carrier cruiser nerfing which took things away from the most balanced the game ever was.

Reply #87 Top

I think all the Carrier Caps got overbuffed when all they needed were tiny tweaks.  Skirantra kiting might be the most egregious offender now, closely followed by the Halcyon, but even the Sova is devastating if it forces you to fight on its ground.  A double Sova rush at your HW early game can be crippling.  Carrier Caps were still valuable for their abilities before the buffs.

 

I don't think overall balance is as terrible as people make it out to be, but it can certainly feel that way when you are on the receiving end of the current optimal killer strategy (Early Carrier Cap Rushing).  I kind of liked it back when strikecraft were stronger because I felt like they countered LRF and gave LF more of a role as Carrier hunters.  Even back then when flak was less effective I sometimes made flak fleets to utterly confound people who were mindlessly spamming carriers to show it could be countered.  As it stands, LRM are king again, except Advent are missing out a bit because the Illuminator bug fix in conjunction with previous balance tweaks to the Illum have made them a bit weaker than they need to be to match enemy LRF fleets.

 

When I was playing a bit back in the fall I did fairly well with TEC against experienced players.  I chased off Skirantra with massed LRM early game, repaired with Hoshikos mid game, and in the cases where the Vasari dug in with starbases, I fragged their valuable economic worlds with Novaliths BEFORE the late game Vasari technologies could be implemented to kill me.  If the Vasari has to spend money to build big fatty starbases to hold off your fleet, you will get to implement your sub par endgame before they can and you just have to brute force them with your disposable ships and superior economy.  If the Vasari have end game technologies and a bigger fleet and have you on the defensive, well...then you are losing and have been for a while...Sins is one of those games where sometimes people have been losing for an hour and they just don't know it yet (thanks Entrenchment <_< ).

 

Advent need a little something though.  They can still resist early game LRF rushes with scouts if they are in a pinch so that isn't an issue, but their weaker Illuminator puts them at a disadvantage trying to resist Carrier Cap rushes.  They could also use a more effective Domina Subjugator

I was in that game. Blair (the dev) went lums (when they were still bugged) against Cykur and Cykur completely killed all the lums by kiting his carries (pre speed nerf of the carriers with single sc only). This resulted in Blair reducing the speed for all carriers next patch
End of quote

Yes, I kited Blair (I am pretty sure he was Vasari though, I recall kiting his Assailants to death.)  Carrier kiting was a sucky strategy and needed nerfing. (This is just trivia, has no relevance to current balance.)

 

Anyhow, I see some harsh comments, and I think it is a little unfair to the devs ... I don't think of Sins as a broken game, I think a ton of patches went into it and it is a lot better than it was at launch.  I was not as excited about how hard it got to kill people after Entrenchment because games could really be drawn out, but you can't argue with how much Entrenchment added to single player.  The major thing the multiplayer community really needed was the ability to distribute maps or mods via the launch platform so it wasn't so prohibitively painful to get people to try a mod.  With that in place, multiplayer gamers could have managed their own balance.

Reply #88 Top

This was long ago when it was still vanilla that was played(I would almost definitely say it was before entrenchment). I am wanting to say it was vanilla 1.10 was the version. You do not know how long illuminators were bugged since you only discovered it yourself post diplomacy. Nerfing carrier cruisers at this time was a bad idea due to them having a definite counter and nothing being too terribly uncounterable. It was a foolish move to go illums against fighter spam. A few very vocal forum people along with this game resulted in carrier cruiser nerfing which took things away from the most balanced the game ever was.
End of quote

 

It was almost a year after launch in Vanilla.  There was nothing real cool about running carriers in a circle around the gravwell in a game where the ship AI stops to shoot -- the frigates would struggle to catch up, and when they started shooting they would fall out of range immediately. You could INTENSELY micro to help compensate for this, but the person kiting you just had to hold down shift and give his carrier fleet 5 minutes of waypoints circling the gravwell, select his strikecraft and shift click a bunch of targets, then get back to running his empire. 

The patch to nerf carrier speed didn't arrive until several months later, so it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction on the devs part.

Reply #89 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 88

This was long ago when it was still vanilla that was played(I would almost definitely say it was before entrenchment). I am wanting to say it was vanilla 1.10 was the version. You do not know how long illuminators were bugged since you only discovered it yourself post diplomacy. Nerfing carrier cruisers at this time was a bad idea due to them having a definite counter and nothing being too terribly uncounterable. It was a foolish move to go illums against fighter spam. A few very vocal forum people along with this game resulted in carrier cruiser nerfing which took things away from the most balanced the game ever was.

 

It was almost a year after launch in Vanilla.  There was nothing real cool about running carriers in a circle around the gravwell in a game where the ship AI stops to shoot -- the frigates would struggle to catch up, and when they started shooting they would fall out of range immediately. You could INTENSELY micro to help compensate for this, but the person kiting you just had to hold down shift and give his carrier fleet 5 minutes of waypoints circling the gravwell, select his strikecraft and shift click a bunch of targets, then get back to running his empire. 

The patch to nerf carrier speed didn't arrive until several months later, so it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction on the devs part.
End of Cykur's quote

 

After the game Blair said he would change it next patch (prolly few months later) he did.  The speed nerf to the carriers needed to happen though.  This was just an example of how Devs, participating in more experience games, are enlighten.

Reply #90 Top

After the game Blair said he would change it next patch (prolly few months later) he did. The speed nerf to the carriers needed to happen though. This was just an example of how Devs, participating in more experience games, are enlighten.
End of quote

Killing devs with exploitative game tactics is a hard job, but somebody has to do it.

Reply #91 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 90

After the game Blair said he would change it next patch (prolly few months later) he did. The speed nerf to the carriers needed to happen though. This was just an example of how Devs, participating in more experience games, are enlighten.

Killing devs with exploitative game tactics is a hard job, but somebody has to do it.
End of Cykur's quote

 

Yeah, Blair was the best player out of all the Devs I've played against. Wish they would play more online

Reply #92 Top

Please enlighten them on skirantras then:)

Reply #93 Top

aka Wizard of Wor

Personally speaking I think Vasari was overpowered during the last couple of times I have played against them. Vasari Carrier's with some other frigates in a start of a game rush, if your Advent your screwed. Advent suck at keeping neutrals that means no economy during a Vasari rush.  Everyone knows Advent start weak and are really difficult to defeat late game.  I primarily played Advent because I believe they are the most difficult race to master and develop consistently winning strategies. Other races like TEC and Vasari just get a good economy and spam your heart away. I really do not respect folks that play solely with Vasari, just get some neutrals and spam away.  But it's been almost a year since I have played, so my last experience may not be relevant if there has been a recent patch. I took time off because too many clan bitches/win ratio bitches have spoiled the experience of playing the game.  The time I left I had probably about 400 to 500 wins, nothing to brag about when factoring in my losses. Maybe after getting my uber gaming PC up, I will play again - not sure!

Reply #94 Top

Acgtually imo advent has very viable counter to skirantra spam. build 1 or 2 carier caps and the 3-5 drones ....

Reply #95 Top

Halcyon + Defense Vessel is pretty much Advent's only viable opener currently; anything else will just get you swamped by assailants and bombers.  Of course, this combo is inflexible and predictable, so it's hardly the cure-all.

Reply #96 Top

Halcyon + Defense Vessel is pretty much Advent's only viable opener currently; anything else will just get you swamped by assailants and bombers.  Of course, this combo is inflexible and predictable, so it's hardly the cure-all.
End of quote

Never tried this one but I've been quite successful with my drones combo. Thing with my combo is that it lets you play on offence while defence vessel spam lets you be only on defence and nevertheless you will probably loose your cap ship.

With drones you are able to attack directly after you kill his caps.....

But yeah I will try your strategy next time I play advent just to see how it pans out.....

Reply #97 Top

Flak spam is not satisfactory.  All they have to do is plop down a SB and all the flak suddenly are useless.  Flak spam does not solve the source problem though which are the caps themselves.  Drone hosts are useful on the defense sometimes but once they switch to offense the vasari will get phasic trap.  Tier 0 spam is one of the few viable things to counter early vasari at present.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #98 Top

True they can get phasic traps but that is tier 4 research and if you surprise your guy and kick out 1 or 2 of his cap ships drones accompanied with disciples that you build afterwards give you the edge over skirmisher spam he's going to try to build once he sees your 5 drones.

My strategy is meant as a rush tactic versus rush tactic of 2-3 skirantras. However up until now I wasn't able to make it work against skilled player with 4 skirantras and skirmisher spam. For that i do believe you need at least 2 of your own carrier caps although I think 1 cap and disc spam would work better in this case.

Reply #99 Top

Never tried this one but I've been quite successful with my drones combo.
End of quote

Too expensive and too easy to chase down and kill, IMO.  It's not exactly Vasari's favourite unit, but this early in the game they can still easily run down carrier antics with Skirmishers, and that will easily tide them over until they can build up a sufficient mass of assailants and sentinels.

Flak spam is not satisfactory.  All they have to do is plop down a SB and all the flak suddenly are useless.
End of quote

You'll need to rely on bombers from the Halcyon to take down an Orky.  Frankly, I'd agree that it's not satisfactory, but I don't think any Advent opener currently is.  This one at least won't get bowled over very easily and forms a nice backbone for a more mature fleet.

Tier 0 spam is one of the few viable things to counter early vasari at present.
End of quote

Yeah, I can accept T0 spam as workable in the short-term, but long-term Vasari just needs to get critical mass of assailant/sentinel and research discharge missiles to rip through this one.

Reply #100 Top

omg Qu4r just stfu. everything you say is just bullshit. in fact in one post you even said that playing TEC or advent is taking the easy way out. I dont know if you are trolling or are just generally retarded but i do know that if the IQ test you suggested was implemented we would never here from you agian. You can't relie on a 5v5 replay for your evidence. All of your evidence is crap, your arguement is practically non-existant and you have no real evidence or proof that your right. so STFU and GTFO sins forums.

{SB}=>Warfleet

Ah ha ha i wrote this after reading the first 2 pages of the arguements between qu4r, greyfox, and mindseye. didnt read all the way through cus i couldnt stand the shit anymore.