Vasari Scramble Bombers Counters

Kill the cap not the bombers

yesterday night I was playing advent and got 3 skirantra rush too. I owned him with 2 halycrons loaded with fighters and about 10-13 defense vessels. gets more tricky of course when they level up.

Also, download patch version 1.20 once it gets released(or get the beta now if you want).  The duration is being cut from 120 to 75, IIRC.  That should prevent level 5 Skirantras from 'Scrambling' up to 12 squads of bombers each beyond their normal capacity.

With what?

Can I see your auto-replay? If you don't have it, try to go into a bit more detail about what strategies you used...

I will wait until the Beta becomes non-beta. Thanks though.

The 1.2 patch just came out.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, now that the patch has been out for a while, I'm even more convinced the 1.2 Skirantra nerf wasn't enough.  I still see too many people successfully rushing 3 Skirantra, with few counters.  I don't mean to whine, but I knew this would be the case.  It may be that bombers are also too strong, but I think its mostly due to Scramble Bombers itself.

Something to look at here as Vasari bombers have 5 armor and there may be a case for bombers in general, though I think the issue may be lack of fighter viability due to flak. Some good suggestions have been made around this already.

Since 1.20 I think skirantra bombers  are easily countered ( at least from start and low LVL cap ships) with fighters on carriers. Yes he can opt to build flak but flak on itself is easily countered as well and as first reply says. Kill skirantra and problem is solved.

While hes investing into flak you can invest into LF and LRMs. LF in order to kill flak and drain his resources and LRMs in order to kill skirantras. You only need 15 - 20 LRMs with right upgrades...

If you let sensible vasari player build 3 skirantras it can mean 4 things:1) you have now enough lrm to melt skirantra in seconds, so he wasted money 2) you went eco and will soon outspam him 3) he has many, many  neuts and you'd be fucked even if he colony frig rushed you 4) l2p. Bottom line being 3 skirantras in short run are very cost inefficent... hell, even 2 are. Proof? Akkan+lrm beats 2 skirantras. Just watch those freaking replays.

I think devs actually did good job adjusting scram bombers (they tend to overnerf). It's no longer OP but still very good ability.

That reminds me of the time just last week, I was playing FFA 3 player VS 1 Vasari and 1 Advent on my custom map, on one of my outer worlds, the Vasari show up with 4 Skirantra Carriers. Two were level 4, and I think 1 was level 9. Basically they took all their fleets and mashed them up and threw them at me. That fleet took over 4 of my planets before I cut them off with my main assault fleet.

Vasari bombers are overpowered...their construction time per squadron is significantly better (99s vs 139 for Advent and 138 for TEC) and I think this advantage gets easily unnoticed...the extra armor is also somewhat a problem, though per squadron Vasari bombers have less HP (420 vs 525 for Advent and 500 for TEC)...the real issue is that the HP per individual SC is higher than the other two factions, making it much harder to shoot down an individual bomber...

It is for this reason that scramble bombers is so effective...it simply is impossible to actually destroy any of the bombers before they disappear and are replaced by a fresh squadron...late game, repair cloud makes vasari bombers practically invincible...both scramble bombers and repair cloud wouldn't be nearly as OP in combo if they were given to TEC or Advent...but, the combination of these abilities and a very high HP per unit makes Vasari bombers so tough, you're only real option is to go straight for the caps themselves (which isn't a very good option)...

A more appropriate construction time would at least put Vasari on par with the other factions, though this does nothing for scramble bombers...in my opinion, shifting Vasari squadrons up one SC per squad is part of the solution...if Vasari bomber/fighter squadrons had 4/5 SC instead of 3/4, they wouldn't be so hard to kill (obviously HP and DPS per unit have to be adjusted accordingly)...

I do agree that a major part of the problem is how powerful bombers are in the first place...if you ever play with modifications that make bombers weaker, scramble bombers doesn't seem to be OP at all (post v1.2), especially if fighters are made to be viable counters...

Late game everything goes.

You could also say that tec perv economy, trade spam, and faster ship production not to mention hoshikas with demo bots and novaliths become OP as well.

As for advent batle ball with guardians disciples with steal am shield restore ..... 

The thing is that at least as low LVL caps go skirantra is by fas best option to choose between all vasari caps. It's not because of scramble bombers. It's because all other caps are sort of meh compared to it. You could argue for Egg or Jarasul but jarasul is pretty useless unless enemy is bomber heavy and before it reaches lvl 5. As for Egg it has nanities which against player that doesn't pay attention means quicker cap death but egg is slow and dies fast .....

PS. And another thing

Go online and you will see which race is most popular lately (after 1.20)

HINT It's not vasari

Thank you Greg for your sane post, I just hate those TEC theorists with their meaningless numbers, long, pretentious posts and little knowledge of actual gameplay. TEC SP lobby rules forum atm and I'm afraid devs listen to these people.

Only factors there you could consider OP are dem bots and novalith...pervasive economy, industrial juggernaut, and TEC trade are not OP....you know that Greg, so don't give me that crap...

Really?

I'm not a TEC theorist...I've argued that Novaliths are OP with the current trade debuff, and I've been playing with the current version of dem bots for months, long before you ICO people were using it...scramble bombers, subverters + mines, and old kosturas were each individually more problematic than the new dem bots...dem bots at least requires a fleet to follow up with on killing the enemy; subverters + mines and kosturas did not, and dem bots don't crush the early game like scramble bombers of old did...

The issue is not dem bots...the issue is that LFs are generally useless...when modded to actually be useful, LFs counter hoshiko hordes very well (remember that dem bots only disables weapons, not abilities)...

Obviously more people are playing TEC now, but it's not because they are high-minded "TEC theorists"...it's because they think TEC is now the best faction, and they'd readily change to Pirates if they were suddenly made playable and given the best setup...many of the people playing TEC realize more than most that TEC is the dominant faction now, hence why they choose to play them over Vasari...

Although I could say something against your reply seleuceia I choose not to.

You were anti Vasari in so many posts already that its pointless.

Fact that combined Jugernaut research and Sovas LVL 6 abiity can pop out LRMs every 4 sec or so kind of disappears from your radar.

Another fact while embargo rushing with purchased LVL 3 Sova gives you 70% of enemy income and his income is 70% less goes by you as well .....   

I think as far my testing goes all races are on pretty equal footing at the moment. I didn't play skilled game that would drag into really late game.....

Maybe, still alot of Vas out there, most likely due to people finally understanding phase missiles. I still play Advent mainly online.

I completely disagree with that. LF with right upgrades are formidable weapons.

I think main reason why people still play Vasari is because of easy SB option which while fighting in gravity well can be extremely annoying if someone pops it in  on other side of gravity well.

You hardly ever see this...and even if you do, pre v1.2 TEC fleet was so inferior to Advent and Vasari it didn't matter...even with v1.2, the issue is not TEC industry, its dem bots...industrial juggernaut is a level 7 tech with three levels and keeping a lvl 6 TEC capital ship alive is rather difficult...the situation you posit is not even remotely OP compared to a single level 5 tech that upgrades the best early game support ship...

I really think you are just disagreeing with me because you can...LF are seriously weak, even with their abilities, and that is pretty standard opinion...Vasari LF in particular are pretty bad since they are expensive and have terrible DPS...the only viable situations for LFs is when your opponent makes some seriously poor choices for fleet composition (like, all flak or all carriers), and those situations are easily remedied by having a good amount of LRF (which just happen to be the best unit)...LFs simply die too fast for their abilities to really have much use...

I defer to my original statement that if LFs were made more useful (which is something that should be done anyway) then dem bots wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem...TEC players will almost always have LRMs, so any horde of LFs will be quickly pummeled before it does anything to those hoshikos...your argument maybe could stand for disciples, but advent are so gimped in other areas that I don't think it really matters...

You continually label me as some anti-Vasari zealot, as if I hate Vasari regardless of how strong or weak they are...

A lot of players have continually criticized kosturas, subverters, and scramble bombers, not just me...

I would point out that I have advocated many buffs to Vasari (even before v1.2), including but not limited to stronger PM swarm (even better than v1.2), stronger subversion, better jarrasul colonize ability (which is now implemented in v1.2), cheaper colony pods on SB, significantly better buffs for overseer, more DPS for the skirmisher, higher bonuses for pop cap technologies...the list goes on...

I've also advocated debuffs to Advent and TEC such as weaker repulsion, weaker supply pact, and weaker novalith, so I really don't think you can argue I am vehemently against Vasari simply because they are Vasari...they were OP, and now they're not...that's not just my opinion, that is a view point shared by many people...and like many people, I am now concerned that TEC may be a wee bit too strong....

This thread was for anti-Scramble Bomber spamming strategies, not the merits of the Vasari or the TEC in particular.

By "TEC theorists" I meant forum posters with fair/exceptional knowledge of game stats but little MP gaming experience, mostly playing TEC in SP.

TEC has always been pretty popular because it's easy to learn and play. EVE-O had Caldari, Age of Conan had Tempest of Set, World of Tanks has T-54. Every game has noob race/character/whatever that lets you play good without much effort. Sins has TEC.  Obviously I'm not trying to say that all TEC players are noobs, just saying that it's designed to be easy therefore attracts most casual players. Neither I'm saying that TEC is horribly OP (although it is strongest race now). It's just meant to be easy spam race.

Even old advent battle ball required quite a bit of micro, even if only with repulse. With TEC you just SPAM SPAM SPAM

...and LFs are not weak, they are used very often with success. I don't see how is that debatable. Disciples are not exactly rare sight.

...Just kept right on postin'...

I ONLY play TEC, and I can quickly get up to 1st in Credit Metal and Crystal slots if I am going eco; while most other races have a spot of trouble getting a strong economy going, the TEC quickly sets itself up and chugs out a fleet or a huge feed.

LF are the anti-siege,support,flak,carrier junk that you need to boost your DPS by miniscule amounts. A good fleet has them. (Of course, don't go overboard. A good LF to LRF ratio might be 1:4-5[Again, here I go with the TEC(Sorry Advent and Vasari players...)])

Vicious players spam LF, and I have been murdered by Vasari Ravastra Skirmishers spamming reintegration and interference(Wotsit called?).

TEC can uncontestedly get the best economy.

LF are good at fighting stuff they counter (carriers, flak, scouts and support ships), but are easily countered by lrf which are arguably the best ship type in the game.

No I'm not.

Did you venture online and played against legolas.

He plays advent and is heavy LF spammer. He tends to build about 60- 80 disc and more than once I've seen him build 160+ as well.

I've seen him take scalps of some of the best players with nothing but LF and 1 carrier cap.

Just one example without AM steal and thats not the only one. Advent can very effectively neutralize subverters with disciples with steal AM upgrade. They are counter to subverters.