Scout ships could serve two very important roles aside from direct combat...

First, they could be used to fight structures...timed explosives could be made more useful if it was lower tier (of course it would need to be carefully balanced lest it become OP for early rushing)...for example, it could completely disable all functions of a structure (such as the constructing ability of factories or the use of a lab)...obviously a very long cooldown is necessary (though I think the current one is like 10 minutes)...

Martyrdom could fulfill a similar role, maybe doing more damage or disabling the structure longer, but obviously at the cost of the ship (which is arguably negligible)...obviously it would need to be lower tier as well (I'm thinking tier 2 for both these abilities)...

Vasari scouts already have a unique role of capturing neutrals, though I'd advocate some tweaking to their cloaking ability (changing the AM cost and AI use conditions actually works rather well, I've gotten the ship to use the ability properly and to stay invulnerable for long periods of time)...the cooldown on this could prevent it from being abused for capturing neutrals (plus, it uses AM)...

The 2nd role of scouts would be to deal with mines....of course, scouts already have this role except that mines are generally useless (and therefore so is this role)...I'm sort of hoping that Rebellion fixes mines, making them both more useful and more understandable to the AI...I would go even so far as to say that only scout ships could destroy mines but that is an entirely different discussion...

I do believe that if scouts were better at these 2 roles (and both these roles were seen as actually important), then there would be no need for them to be part of early game combat (at least not in a conventional manner)...

An early game involving 4 units would then require a new ship, the corvette...

I agree that carriers aren't a viable early game unit, but fighters are the only option other than scouts without adding a new ship...

Of course, this is all highly speculative...short term solution, seeker gets HP nerf and illum gets a damage buff (preferably frontal, though I have no suggestion for an exact number)...probably not the most ideal solution but I think it could work, enough to guarantee a competitive early game for the Advent...

I wish there were a way to tap into each frigate factory and tell them how to make the ships--what their attack range should be when they come out, whether to have auto join fleet on, and whether auto attack should be on (for scouts and colonizers and the like).

Okay, I read the first two pages, too lazy to read the rest, but here's my suggestion, sorry if someone else mentioned it on a page I didn't read:

Cut ship speed and damage in half, and give them an antimatter-dependant ability that is devastatingly strong towards structures.  Let em have 1-2 shots without upgrades, deal maybe 3-400 damage in one shot, so there is incentive to build more before sending them into a grav well undefended, and make it more likely that the owner will wait till their antimatter reserve is replenished before continuing on to the next planet.  (Make the ability a research, even, so there is a higher investment involved in the strategy.)

I agree that part of the current issue with their effectiveness is that people are leaving themselves open to this sort of attack, but I honestly don't like the concept of a ship that is highly destructive vs buildings with its basic gun.

-Twilight Storm

I agree, but they are just a bit too strong, even for the role they are supposed to be for.  Granting them an anti-building ability seems a bit more reasonanble, since it wouldn't be able to be used constantly.  If buildings were supposed to insta-pop, they wouldn't have armor.

-Twilight Storm

Not that it hasn't been said, but the biggest problem is a lack of effective system defense options that don't involve a "fleet"--even if it is only comprised of scouts.

The planets should have some slight inherent defense.  Just as a meager and single purpose force can whittle them down, so a planet should be able to whittle down such attacking forces.

I like the idea of a planet autohosting some sort of defense (and I also like the idea of making hangars actually usable for more than just their abilities).

I don't expect a WWII or modern naval warfare extrapolation--just a common sense Sins game mechanic.  It is competently absurd that a couple of small carriers or cruisers get over a heavily populated world and the world is literally powerless to do anything to stop them.  It's unrealistic on any level (of course, that's imho).

Skirmishers and nuisance forces do not win entire wars--they are a drain on forces and production--but rarely can they overcome a defended position.

It would be great if planets had a zone of anti-strike and anti-ship coverage near them.  Say the range of the longest ranged unit in the game.  That would allow many facilities to be put within that zone but not all would fit.  So you still could pick away at the farther out objectives like resource asteroids and facilities/defenses that couldn't be squeezed in right to the planet.  This would be much more satisfying and the planet's damage doesn't need to be devastating--just steady.

Other things that could be done would be to make destroyed hangars and starbases linked units remain in play until enemy forces left the gravity well or they were destroyed.  That at least would provide some improved defense.  It would be akin to fighting until you ran out of fuel and then ditching and waiting for friendly forces planetside to pick you up.

Maybe even a "convert module to strike craft" ability could be created where you could destroy the module and have strike craft or even mines spawn. You could maker an ability that calls a buff to self destruct a unit and then have that also be the trigger for another buff that spawns the units.

I guess my biggest irk on this is you have to presume that a society that terraforms planets, creates mass quantities of antimatter and can travel to the stars is just to stupid to be able to understand or care about effectively defending their planets while simultaneously being bright enough to make specialized units to destroy them and their defenses.

Indeed. (that's why I said "free fighter squad" instead of "free squad") Then again, I don't really see a problem with allowing strikecraft in general (instead of forced fighters), but most players with any sense would almost always queue only fighters.

I did say "per 50 population or so, rounded up" to account for this, making sure that every planet would be able to support at least one fighter squad.

Well, the planet is already the part-squadron-host for static hangar defense structures. Clicking on either the hangar structure or the planet gives you access to its strikecraft menu.

But I have no idea how much work it would take for the developers to introduce something like this.

Really like the idea of planet linked SC. Would be helpful to us Turtlers of the world. As for the realism aspect of static defenses in space being able to adequately defend I would say, actually it would work rather well but the difference is it would orbit the planet. So you set up a grid of defense platforms that orbit but again, this is nullified for the benefit of game mechanics. Therefore, us turtle players are merely asking for some buffs to overcome the "nerf of static defenses in space for the sake of memory issues."

What kinds of strike craft carriers have?

Maybe in Rebellion?

Have read the 6 pages from these topic... yes, Orgov can be a pain but with my own experience, mines make a good work to disable them...

Vasari can use Gravity mines for slow them down ( -30% max speed, -60% acceleration and disable phase jump )... allowing fighter/bomber to destroy them... of course, explosive mine can be mixed with the gravity mines... and  the ruiner can lay mine everywhere ( can mine a wormhole if you wish )

In case of Advent, homing mines make all the job for you... Tec Proximity mine are not so good ( need a lot of them for cover a phase line entry )...

A fleet made from Orgov only will die quickly in a mine field... have always think that mines was the first line of defense for a gravity wheel...

I think ogrovs are ok.

After all vasari has a starbase that moves.

Vasari sb ought not to move at all. There should be some sort of research prerequisite before it can move.

Theory aside, I have never gotten TEC or Advent mines to do anything useful against a competent human player...

Vasari mines are one thing, but certainly not a very good counter against ogrovs...I'm with Wrath here, scouts (and maybe LFs if you already have them built) are the best way to deal with these things...

If you happen to have fighters for whatever reason (hangars or SB), obviously that is the ideal situation...but those are tied to their gravity well and can't pursue like scouts...