How useful is Shield Negation for Vasari?

It not only bypasses shields but also bypasses shield mitigation which can stop 65% to 85% of damage. Results are seen online as TEC and Vasari are the only ones that are played and any Advent are smashed quickly by the Vasari.

Read those older threads, they'll show you the math that proves that bypassing mitigation is a huge advantage. In fact no other weapon type comes close to the damage phase missiles can do when fully upgraded.

Easily the best weapons upgrade in the game by a ridiculous margin.  Huge Vasari advantage.

You can roughly calculate it as doing [(% damage increase) = (% shield bypass)] vs frigates and more to larger targets like star bases and cap ships.

I don't understand why people think the shield bypass works a lot better vs advent then other races it will a little because of mitigation techs and culture bonus but just because they have a higher shield to hull ratio doesn't mean you need to do less damage unless the unit still has shields when its destroyed (very possible but rare)

Its more due to the fact that with phase missiles, armor plays a much bigger role. And TEC is the master of armor with the potential of increasing 8 high by research.

And Progenitor motherships can keep Advent shields high enough that they do in fact run out of hull points while shields remain.

Factoring into consideration that shield negation neglects mitigation: During 450 dmg mitigation rise: average mitigation of 37.5. negation 30%: has a 30% chance to deal 100% damage instead of 62.5% damage; that's a 30% chance to deal 1.6x damage: during the rest of the fight against that ship, has a 30% chance to deal 100% dmg instead of 40% dmg: 30% chance to deal 2.5x damage.

assuming 450:totalpts is 1:2, shield negation will overall effect a 30% chance to do 2.2x damage, before repairs. Comes out to an effective damage increase of 1.36x. Assuming shield runs out first, of course.

If 450:totalpts is 1:3, 30% chance to do 2.275x damage. Comes out to an effective damage increase of 1.3825x. Assuming shield runs out first, of course.

Negation will be even more effective against Caps, especially high-level ones, with higher mitigation limits.

So it is a pretty hefty bonus after all.

Armor plays no bigger role with phase missiles then they do with any other weapon type.

This is the main possible but rare expectation I mentioned but by the time you have phase missiles teched enough to have a significant shield bypass your fleet should be large enough to focus fire on any caps in range, letting your enemy getting maybe 1 or 2 shield restore off but sacrificing the progenitor to do it.

is anything not useful for the vasari...siriously 

They are more effective versus Advent capital ships because Advent capital ships are not as sturdy out the gate as Tech. Further, Tech has early access to hull/armor tech while advent has early access to shield/hull. The early armor tech does more to absorb phase missiles than the shield upgrades do. Advent's ability to get to get armor upgrades is really hindered by it's tier requirement.

What I don't understand is why people think the Advent higher shield to hull ratio is that great. The ratio is higher because the hull is so LOW. 

Look at the Psi battleship compared to the tech battleship. Is the 800 loss in hull for a measily 500 gain in shield that great of an improvement. Further the shield takes 100% of all damage from all types while the hull gets a modifier due to damage type. If you wanted a bit better balance the shield would need to be up closer to 2500-3000 starting out. They'd have some better late game survivability/scaling if their shields were up'd too out the gate.

Psi Battleship: 2200/1750
Tech Battleship: 3000/1250

Psi Colony: 2350/1450
Tech Colony: 3150/1250

As it stands currently, the shield advantage advent has over other races is NOT their shield/hull ratio. Their shield advantage is their research and shield based abilities.

It seems to be a close race between Ryat and Darvin3 for the title 'karma king'. Who will reach 200 karma first?

Ima preety sure both shields and hull recieve the same damage modifiers.  a unit with medium armor, which has 1 hp, and 1000 shields, should die just as fast as a unit with medium armor, 0 armor, and 1000 hull and 1 shield  to a group of lrms.  (excluding passive regen)

Hmmm. That would seem odd that an armorType would affect the shields. But... I'll do a test case to see what happens setting up your scenario above as I I'd like to know for sure versus being pretty sure.

However, in either case. The original point would still hold as all ships have Armor and Shield mitigation making Advents starting shields very weak compared to their hull discrepancy to the other races.

Edit - lol, well I would have never figured the armor type would apply to shields I should pay more attention... But I'm even more confused now. I setup a test case where a PsiLight frigate fired 3 times on a PsiBattleship with 0 shield regen. The result was 1690 shields out of 1750 or 20*3 shots. However, the damage per shot was suppossed to be 46.750000 which should have resulted in 1679 shields remaining.

Fired 3 more shots and ended up with 1630 shield remaining out of 1750...

What gives?...

Considering some of the others (like harpo99999 and DrJBHL ) we don't have a chance. DrJBHL has 1500+ karma points.

Did you change the shield mitigation? That may factor the discrepancy.

That was it. I set it to zero in the entity file, but it still defaulted to 15%. Thanks.

Sure it does, due to the increased likelihood of the missiles hitting the hull. Since shield protection is significantly less effective against phase missiles, TEC, with its high armor, has a slight advantage over other races fighting Vasari; their ships will last a bit longer.

Mess with the player entity files here

shieldData
    shieldAbsorbGrowthPerDamage 0.001000
    shieldAbsorbDecayRate 0.012500
    shieldAbsorbBaseMin 0.1500

to get rid of shield mitigation.

I like your modesty. The makings of a karma king.