How many light frigates to build when there are lots of enemy LRF?

Now that I think about this particular example a bit more I'm feeling more unsure about it. After the first minute or two, the enemy Hoshikos should all be dead, but so will my LF, and it'll be my 20 LRM and spare ships plus the enemy's 30 LRM and spare ships. The enemy will have significantly more damage-dealing power, won't have any repair capabilities, but will probably have the advantage. A huge factor is where our relative frigate factories are. If I'm attacking an enemy gravity well and they can build backup Hoshikos every 20 seconds or so, my use of LF probably wouldn't be worth it because the enemy would be able to build and continue to have continuous repair capabilities, while my LF would be slaughtered and my fleet wouldn't be all that strong after that.

If they're attacking one of my gravity wells and I can replace my dead LF by building more LRM quickly, this strategy seems viable.

If both of our frigate factories are far away from the battle... I dunno, but I think the enemy would have the advantage, given their LRM.

For a direct firefight, none.  Light frigates get torched so quickly by LRF in those kinds of quantities that you shouldn't be using them for straight fights.

However, due to their fast move speed light frigates can still be used for skirmishing purposes to pursue unescourted support units and chase down retreating enemies.  They make a great reserve unit as a result, and can be an exceptional cleanup-force.

Scouts work well for this purpose as well. Scouts have very high HP/Cost ratios and as a bonus can take out mines if needed. I find myself using scouts even in late game for the very purpose of chase down and cannon fodder. I usually always keep about 30 scouts around my caps for a reserve fleet.

I'm not sure about this; the usual counter to something like this is a few big ships with a lot of defense, but in the early game I know I don't have the cash for that kind of approach. Research for shields and armor might help you frigates last longer in a protracted fight but I think my stategy would be to lure the enemy fleet into a ridiculous number of defenses and while they are chewing on the hardened platforms sniper them with my own ships.

That would generally work against the easier AIs, but not against humans... there are usually better things to invest in than defenses.

Scouts only work well against light armor units (which, ironically, does not include the light frigate).  The light frigate is most useful against heavy armor types, such as flaks, support cruisers, and carrier cruisers.  The two units complement each other very well in this role.

Works beautifully against an AI, but in multiplayer your opponent will laugh at you and just move to bombard the planet.  Or just attack with longer-ranged units.

Against a strategy where my opponent is spamming LRFs-in early games, I tend to use a reasonable amount of LRFs, mixed in with support cruisers (that can heal/disable- depending on faction), flak frigates and maybe a carrier capital ship. Later on (if my opponent continues to spam LRFs), I would mix in heavy cruisers, and possibly build more carrier capital ships without neglecting my own armada of LRFs. A mixed navy usually proves superior to one that spasm a particular unit(s), likewise the LRF should be the backbone of any armada.

Here I am assuming you're also TEC- I'd counter with x1 cap ship (Akkan with Ion bolt), x5 hoshikos, x20 LRF, and put the rest in flak. I'd also focus on opponents LRFs first, while trying to keep my own capital ship and flak alive with hoshikos. To be honest though your opponent has a nice mixture of ships that complement each other, so it will always be a tough battle.

oops double post (=^ _ ^= )

That sounds about right.

After doing some tests it seems that (with my LF strategy) even with all ships focus-firing on the Hoshikos, it takes a long time for even one of them to die. By the time all of my (8) LF are dead I've only killed 2 or 3 Hoshikos, which would ruin the battle for me. But for my attack-Hoshi-strategy to work I'd need to kill all of them, else the ones left would keep repairing.

Light frigates are a little more durable than people make them out to be, I think, but not by much. If the enemy is using a few Cobalts then the choice is between your LRM attacking the Cobalts or the enemy LRM. Looking at the numbers, it seems that Cobalts can actually withstand a bit more damage, on a per-ship basis, even after factoring in their weakness to LRF. (Cobalts are also a bit cheaper than LRM)

But since Cobalts would only be that useful for attacking Hoshis, and since the Hoshis simply won't die quickly enough, it makes sense not to build Cobalts at all, even if they absorb damage very slightly better.

Against the mostly-LRF-spam tactic I'm attracted to building a large number of flak, especially if I have a carrier cap which can effectively threaten the enemy cap (and if the enemy isn't Vasari b/c of SB). If I have only 4 or 5 flak, they won't be able to do much damage to any individual ship - and, if the opponent is TEC, the enemy'll be able to repair the damaged units easily. Still, flak of course have excellent durability: if I can get the enemy LRF to attack them instead of my own LRF I'll probably gain the advantage in the battle, all else equal - and getting enemy LRF to priority attack my flak is very easy unless the enemy micros every single attack order onto my LRF (in which case they'll get a significant amount of wasted overkill damage).

Also, if I focus mainly on flak and don't have LRF or have LRF elsewhere out of range (like attacking the enemy cap), I think it's possible to micro a flak swarm around enemy LRM or Assailants so they do very little damage while the enemy gets eaten by flak. Due to moving, my flak won't be doing all that much damage, but... it's an option.

I think I'd normally rather have a few more LRF or flak with my main combat fleet than have some spare LF of mine staying out of the fight and being mostly useless except during the 30 seconds to a minute that my enemy tries to retreat (more depending on if they need to retreat more than 1 phase lane)

Totally depends on what units your opponent is making.  If they're just trying to cram copious numbers of LRF down your throat, you probably don't want any LF; maybe half a dozen for fighting over neutrals, but that's it.

You have to build in ratios: 

E.g weakest race:Advent

 U dont have lrf till tier 3 but u nid to build a big military before reaching tier 3 and have a good economy.

First put down 2 hostility temples and scuttle the cap factory once u have built a halcyon.

By building with ratios i mean a ratio of 2:1 were u build 2 desciples and 1 defense vessel to counter lrf. send out scouts to see what the opponent is building. If hes going all out lrf then change the ratio to 1:2  

U cant negate lf because there the only early heavy armor dealing unit capable of killing caps and carriers effectively. u have to put down the extra hostility temple once you get 1 culture temple econ benefits/ trade ports up cos illums with eat your economy up. 

At tier 0-2 units u can survive with ratio balancing and repair platforms while u ready the economy for illums.

That would really depends on what size of a map you're playing, right? In cramped 5v5, for instance, what you're saying makes good sense because enemy homeworlds are most likely quite close to your own and you need a fleet ASAP. But some other maps are often spacious enough that you might have the freedom to build a few more military labs before having to fleet up with frigates. I'm also not all that hot on the idea of always building a good number of varied military units like that, at least not systematically - I think a good ship-building strategy would completely center around scouting the enemy's fleet and scouting off how much room there is between your worlds (to see if you have the ability to reach tier 3 and build lots of illuminators) - going by a set ship-building strategy would result in a balanced fleet but not necessarily an optimal fleet, in the early game. At least, that's my impression. For instance, if you can see you'll be able to build a lot of Illuminators, I don't see why you would want to build some Disciples first in most cases due to common LRF spam (except if you really really need a bit more firepower very early to scare off an enemy cap or fleet)

All this aside, keep in mind that I don't often play Advent, so there's a chance I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Advent is complicated... yes my strategy is a small map strategy: 1v1

5v5 is trade ports, illums+/destra crusaders and flak/illums.

They way as see it on a small map is opening with illums is difficult in terms of the numbers produced because of advent economics. U have to ratio balance again to get bigger numbers. 

So your saying i should go 3 hostility early game?

If, in a 5v5, you can go for trade ports AND build illums AND crusaders, and still manage to survive against halfway decent players most of the time, you're probably a hell of a lot better than anyone else on ICO.

The problem is that there are rarely enough logistics slots for that sort of thing in a 5v5 because homeworlds are only like 2 or 3 or 4 phase jumps apart; you have to be spending nearly all of your income on basic fleet and probably won't even have enough leeway for any civic labs. At least, not until you've killed your main opponent.

Your Illum / Crusader idea would be much better fitted for a 1v1 because there's a lot of space to expand before you have to fight your enemy; you'll have enough available logistics slots to fill for those higher-tiered military units.

Also, if you're playing a 1v1, you'll certainly want the ability to colonize ice/volc instead of tier 2 military units. On your homeworld, build civic labs, not military labs, and also, start with a Progenitor instead of a Halcyon if you want to have a decently fast start. You can build as many military labs as you need later once you have a couple planets and are thinking about fleeting up to fight the enemy.

No, the problem is the opportunity cost.  You can't afford to waste money on civic investments, when you need as much military (ie: fleet) as soon as possible to defeat your opponent.

Probably Yes, especially if: your opponent is nearby, and if you are in danger of being rushed.  At a minimum, 1 or 2 hostility, and probably no civics at all.

I think early Advent Disciples (LF) are a special case.  They are so cost and time effective that they can complete with an equivalent cost of Vasari LRF.  And win! 

Vasari are still quite vulnerable to so called Advent "tier 0" spam.  I've seen it happen often. 

Advent is perhaps the only faction (due to T0 spam) that can realistically open 2-harmony in a rush scenario.  Culture can be quite a headache for the enemy to deal with, and this approach opens up more colonization options for you.  Definitely a more difficult approach to pull off, but totally viable.

A somewhat less risky variation is to build one temple of communion, research ice and volcanic colonization, then scrap the civic labs.  So long as the enemy doesn't blast the temple of communion, it should last you until you're ready to replace the civic labs.

"Perhaps".  Very Risky!  And unlikely.  Advent are currently the most vulnerable race to rushing strategies.  No mistakes allowed.  I've not seen this work. 

Again, its the opportunity cost.  Every civic investment you make means that many less frigates you can acquire - when you really have to have more than your opponent to survive.

While opportunity costs are an issue, the bigger problem is actually the timing.  On faster speed, you have to make your call regarding labs before you've had an opportunity to scout (on a 5v5 random map, enemies are often as little as 2 jumps away; you gotta make that call instantly).  If you actually knew the distance to the nearest enemy and the planet layout between the two of you, it would be feasible to weigh the tactical and economic opportunities  and whether you could reasonably pull it off.  As it stands, you really can't delay those labs more than 1 minute, which is risky in its own right and still won't give you the full picture.

I'm sure we could both agree that there's a huge difference between a 2-jump proximity with a roid between you and a 4-jump proximity with some intervening ice and volcanics.  The former is pretty much an all-military death match, the latter could lend itself to a more economic approach in spite of being a rush scenario.

Well, if you read the rest of that sentence after the semicolon, you would see that that's what I said: "you have to be spending nearly all of your income on basic fleet and probably won't even have enough leeway for any civic labs. At least, not until you've killed your main opponent." But I think logistics slots are also a very significant issue, especially if you get the phase lane glitch: if the asteroid is disconnected, you probably won't be able to get it easily (it would be a few phase jumps away), and of course can't get the civic labs to colonize the ice/volc your HW is connected to... so you're left with only the logistics slots available on your HW unless you're able to press and colonize a more distant planet, which can be somewhat risky; also, another player is somewhat likely to have colonized it first.

Now that I look at the source files, you may have a point. Comparing to the Cobalt, Disciples do 46.75 every 5.5, compared to 52.25 every 5.5, which is significantly closer than the difference between the infocard's rounded "8 DPS" and "10 DPS". Total durability is also pretty close, but Disciples are 1/5 cheaper ish.

Wrath, I'll concede.  Limited logistic spots is also a very big factor.  But, respectfully IMO, limited income is a bigger factor.

Darvin, do you even play 5v5s online?  If so, what are some of your old smurfs?  Yeah, there's a huge difference, but 2 civics at any race's homeworld is just an invitation for an onslaught.  There's barely enough slots for the Temple of Communion (culture tower), and not enough money for it and a fleet.  Especially if you are spending all of your money on your preferred 'rapid expansion'. 

As I said, if you knew the map layout you could actually weigh those risks and alternatives.  Because you don't at the time you have to make your decision, this is normally infeasible for a 5v5.  That risk is considerably smaller on a 4v4, and quite manageable on 3v3's.  On 2v2 and smaller, there tends to be enough distance that economic openers are not only viable, but actually the better bet.

As for my online record, I've actually been playing mostly sporadic 1v1's in recent months.  With that as my default frame of reference, I tend to be much more receptive to civic openers.  I will admit that my skill level has dropped since I became employed about a year ago and have much less time to devote to playing the game.

I would personally build some anti-fighter frigates or carrier frigates.

Anti-Fighter frigates normally are short range,but they compensate that with a decent sub-light speed and medium armor to hold some shots.

Carrier frigates with bombers in a 1:2(fighter:bomber squadron) that would normally deal nice damage to these LRF.

i've never updated sins since my net speed can't afford to download 16Mb in 2m,so i don't know if much things changed since v1.00 of diplomacy

Well this thread is aimed at multiplayer strategy, so...

Flak do a decent amount of damage against LRF (especially when you have like 20 or more of them) and have great hulls, but I don't think building a few carriers at that point in the game would be all that viable because, in low numbers, they'd be pretty easily neutralized with flak and capital ship fighters.

The bigger issue is that early-game battles tend to run for longer (repair power is more influential) and carrier cruisers run out of antimatter.  Between that and their slow move speed, you're much better off getting a second Halcyon if you want more strike craft power.

I thot we were talking about 5v5s.