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How many light frigates to build when there are lots of enemy LRF?

How many light frigates to build when there are lots of enemy LRF?

I posted this in another thread and wanted to give it a bit more attention to see what others think of it.

If your enemy has a whole lot of LRF in the early-middle game (100+ supply worth, which isn't uncommon), is it still worth building any LF if they'll only survive for a few seconds each on the battlefield? Or, so that they would survive long enough to deal some damage against enemy heavy armor frigates, would it be worth building more than a few, meaning that a greater proportion of your fleet is more easily destroyed by the enemy?

Assuming that the game hasn't progressed to the stage where lots of heavy cruisers and carriers can be produced...

I think what really matters in this consideration is whether the enemy has heavy armor frigates that definitely can and should be taken out pretty quickly at the beginning of the battle, such as repair cruisers and Subverters. Everything else with heavy armor (like flak) I don't think is worth building light frigates for, at least if (while) your enemy has a lot of LRF still in the fray, because your LF would die too easily and wouldn't do all that much to reduce the enemy fleet's damage potential. I especially don't like building LF to counter flak in particular because flak frigates are cheap and have a whole lot of durability: your fleet would be better off focusing on more fragile, damage-dealing targets like LRF using LRF of your own.

In comparison to LRF, using your LF to kill those (repair and Subverter) enemy frigates gives those LF a double damage bonus (LRF do 75% damage compared to 150% damage done by LF) while only suffering a moderate reduction in defense (enemy LRF would stop targeting your LRF (100% modifier) and would start targeting your LF ([edit:]133% modifier)). Another slight advantage is that LF for all races are somewhat cheaper (per supply) for each point of shield/armor they provide. (the increased cost comes almost entirely from the crystal that LRF cost).

So, maybe I should use only just enough LF to ensure all of those high-priority heavy armor targets are dead. The more LF than that I have, the more the enemy fleet has a damage bonus against my fleet (with me gaining less in return, if I'm on to killing flak - large hulls, and not quite as important to kill). The more I can keep their LRF's damage advantage to 100% instead of [edit:]133%, the better.

To give an example: if the enemy comes at me with a cap, 30 LRM, 5 Hoshikos and a few flak, I would counter with my own cap, maybe 20 LRM, a few Hoshikos, and then 10ish LF, while sending in reinforcements of probably all LRM once my units start to die.

This is just something I've been thinking about recently - I haven't been quite focused enough to try it out in an actual game yet. It sounds like a decent idea theoretically, I think, but despite playing a good number of games against experienced players, I haven't yet seen anyone use this tactic against me.

Thoughts?

23,991 views 38 replies
Reply #26 Top

Thought we were talking about multiplayer in general.

In any case, if you're playing on a 5v5 premade (I've had the pleasure of doing so a few times) where you actually know distances, it's entirely feasible to do some more economically sophisticated openers as an agressor.  The biggest issue with the random map is that there's no time to scout before you make that call, so you just don't know your situation.

Reply #27 Top

So... to sum this up so far: Advent start in 5v5 mp should drop hostility labs first and aim for flak and illuminators? what happens when you have an ice world next door? Or is the consensus to spam tier 0 first, see whats up, then decide hostility/harmony?

And in refrence to the OP: Using my handy sandbox calc in the excel sheet I made, I got these results (note this is without upgrades and shield mitigation):

  • Vasari needs 8 LF to beat 5 Advent LRF, 7 LF to beat 5 Vasari LRF, and needs 5 LF to beat 5 TEC LRF.
  • TEC needs 10 LF to beat 5 Advent LRF, 8 LF to beat 5 Vasari LRF, and needs 7 LF to beat 5 TEC LRF.
  • Advent needs 12 LF to beat 5 Advent LRF, 9 LF to beat 5 Vasari LRF, and needs 8 LF to beat 5 TEC LRF.

Scale up accordingly to whatever fleet size you think you will encounter early game. I will note that there has to be some bias towards the Advent LRF due to the tri-beams, which wont be as big of a factor in the early game. So, I would scale back the amount V. illuminators to be something like: 6 Vasari LF, 8 TEC LF, 9 Advent LF, which puts it inline with Vasari LRF (however, this is just a guess. I figured 75% affectiveness).

 

Reply #28 Top

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 27
So... to sum this up so far: Advent start in 5v5 mp should drop hostility labs first and aim for flak and illuminators? what happens when you have an ice world next door? Or is the consensus to spam tier 0 first, see whats up, then decide hostility/harmony?
End of SithLordAJ's quote

It depends (on too many factors).  So, no right answer for all situations.  But almost always ignor the ice.  I'd "spam tier 0 first, see whats up, then decide".  Thing is, you need 1 lab to upgrade to next level of fleet, and 1 harmony gets you nothing, so...

I did use your handy sandbox, and its very revealing!  But why use 5 LRF?  Why not use corresponding fleet amounts (6V LF vs 7A LRF. etc)?  Or better yet, use corresponding cost.  For example: each Advent LF cost $410, and Vasari LRF cost $840 (if crystal & metal @ $4).  So 840 Advent LF vs 410 Vasari LRF.  I bet you'll be suprised by the results. 

Reply #29 Top

For example: each Advent LF cost $410, and Vasari LRF cost $840 (if crystal & metal @ $4).
End of quote

The high 4:1 conversion rate isn't necessarily applicable to a rush scenario.  Vasari in particular can often balance their expenditures so they aren't buying from the black market, meaning lower conversion rates (2.5 or 3) are more suitable.  Once you start doing any economizing the higher conversion rates become a reasonable presumption, but in a rush-game that's often not the case.

Still, the fact remains that the Assailant is an expensive unit while the disciple is an inexpensive one. 

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 29
The high 4:1 conversion rate isn't necessarily applicable to a rush scenario. Vasari in particular can often balance their expenditures so they aren't buying from the black market, meaning lower conversion rates (2.5 or 3) are more suitable.
End of Darvin3's quote

OK, use 2.5, so $350 and $675. 

But I don't know if this applicable either.  Granted you are likely to be selling metal, but probably buying crystal.  Either way, it doesn't change the suprising results.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting SageWon, reply 28
But why use 5 LRF?
End of SageWon's quote

It depends what kind of data you want to get out of it. I was looking at what number of LF, minimum, would beat the minimum 'pack' of LRF you could expect to encounter. I figured 5 LRF would be the bare minimum that would be encountered (think: point blank scenario or 1 roid, etc), and it makes it easy to scale up the numbers to what you are encountering. Obviously, if you want to look at what the most efficient setup is, you would want to scale the number of ships based off the cost, and since Advent needs more labs than TEC and vasari you should factor in the lab costs too....

You could make a very detailed analysis by going further and further, but the question was "How many light frigates to build when there are lots of enemy LRF?". I guess I didnt really answer the question for 'lots of enemy LRF', but you can figure out pretty easily that Advent would need about 40 LF to beat 20 Vasari LRF.

On the other hand, I guess the detailed question was 'how much LF should be used to take out support cruisers when they will be dying fairly quick due to LRF?'. So, I guess the proper response would be that you should find ways to isolate the LRF from the support cruisers, and then use the proper number of LF to take out the support cruisers. Putting stuff into the fight that is already countered doesnt help you anywhich way.

How?

  • Use fighters to take out the LRF while kiting the rest of your fleet. LRF are slow compared to LF. The Bad: LRF are the same speed as the support cruisers, so they might not get seperated. The Ugly: Flak is faster than LRF and should be able to protect everything else. The Good: his, by now, over-diversification means you find the thing hes lighter on and just spam the hell out the counter. Everything else he has is just taking up slots
  • Use subverters/subjigators to disable the LRF. Spam away the LF. Have to be good if also facing subverters to make sure you dont get shutdown first.
  • Be Repulsive.
  • Have a Trandscendia starbase.
  • Maybe tank it with all those LFs getting shield projected+shield restored+repaired?

That's all I got. Anyone else?

Reply #32 Top

Well, this was geared primarily towards early-game. Later in the game this would just turn into a general-optimal-battle-strategy discussion, which could take years. Subverters are out. Subjugators are too (and even if they were used they'd probably be pretty horrible). Fighters are ridiculously easily countered with a few flak that early in the game. Using Repulse plus short-ranged units doesn't sound too nice either. Starbases are easily evaded by humans.

I'm not seeing a viable strategy against humans, early-game, other than the general idea of building 0 LF and going mostly with LRF and repair or flak of your own.

Reply #33 Top

Well, you could just spam flak, but i think you'd have to outnumber him to be effective there. The problem is this: everything has a counter. The way to gain the edge is to find the thing that isn't up to par and exploit that.

If your facing an overwhelming amount of LRF in the early game, the best counter is fighters. Then he has to counter you with flak. Your choices now are to counter the flak (with LF, which he already has countered) or to really go overboard with the fighters and force him to match your new fleet. Once you've done this, the LRF are off the table (basically). Your choice will depend on which way will be hardest for him and easiest for you. If his fleet is really diverse, you want to spam stuff. If his fleet has an even number of a few ships, you probably want to try out-countering him.

Plus, if this is early game, you shouldn't be facing that much LRF. Pick your fights too. A fleet full of LRF and flak might wipe out alot of your fleet if you go toe-to-toe and arent ready, but it cant colonize/wipe out your planet on its own. Maybe keep your expansion going so that you can out-class his fleet later on. I don't really know what your situation is.

I'm pretty sure I'm right on the theory here, but I dont do that much multiplayer. Anyone who does have any advice?

Reply #34 Top

I've played a decent amount of multiplayer and am pretty sure that building fighters to counter LRM is too time-consuming and too easy to counter with flak... it might take 3 minutes to get carriers researched and to get one built, and then you have to build up a decent number of squads... and even then, your fighters can be easily rendered useless with a few flak.

On the (carrier) capital ship they'd work decently (initially) because of the instant builds and 0 AM requirement, but after a minute or so enemy flak would still probably cut all your fighters down to nothing.

Massing flak to counter LRF in the early-game is a decent tactic, but you need to make sure you're also able to counter enemy capital ships or starbases (your enemy or one of their Vasari allies might send a SB your way). Having mostly flak means that if the enemy gets 2 or even 3 caps to bomb your planets with, there's often little you could do to prevent that in the early-game. (flak does nothing vs. caps)

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 33
Plus, if this is early game, you shouldn't be facing that much LRF.
End of SithLordAJ's quote

30+ LRM even early-game is relatively common... it's not a ton, but it's a good number...

Reply #35 Top

Interesting discussion. I am thinking of returning to the game. Where can I find the latest ship damage statistics (LF vs LRF etc) after all the patches and expansions of the last couple of years?

Reply #36 Top

Quoting GJDriessen, reply 35
Interesting discussion. I am thinking of returning to the game. Where can I find the latest ship damage statistics (LF vs LRF etc) after all the patches and expansions of the last couple of years?
End of GJDriessen's quote

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/379562

It is up-to-date as of the current patch version.

Thinking of playing multiplayer?

Reply #37 Top

I'm mostly a vasari player but what about starting with flak to slow the LRF down long enough start spamming illum?

I always want to try and get disciples to work but I've never got LF to work early game. In mid/late game, it always seems that most enemy frigates are LRF and if you counter them heavily you still have enemy cruisers to deal with, and focusing on your own cruisers generally seem better for doing that. There never really seems a time to use them. Though, I haven't played much for a while so bit rusty with what works now.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting carnun, reply 37
I'm mostly a vasari player but what about starting with flak to slow the LRF down long enough start spamming illum?
End of carnun's quote

You'll be incredibly weak to capital ships if you start with flak instead of Illums or Disciples. 2 carrier caps bombing your front line world when you don't have Disciples or Illum means you lose the planet, plus a good amount of investment into the planet.

I always want to try and get disciples to work but I've never got LF to work early game. In mid/late game, it always seems that most enemy frigates are LRF and if you counter them heavily you still have enemy cruisers to deal with, and focusing on your own cruisers generally seem better for doing that. There never really seems a time to use them. Though, I haven't played much for a while so bit rusty with what works now.
End of quote

What massed Disciples are really good at in my experience is hunting down and killing enemy capital ships. If you're good at following damaged enemy caps, and if their repair platforms are far enough away, they'll probably have to retreat their caps extremely quickly to avoid them being hunted and killed.

While Disciples don't do quite as much damage as LRF against caps, LF are quite fast and can clog the phase lane, preventing the enemy cap from getting out for a few more seconds.