Titans - New Game Mechanic Suggestion

Nerfing without toning down their firepower

 

Basic Idea: Leaning heavily on observations of contemporary naval activities, the idea is that certain types of severe damage require the ship to go back to the shipyard for extensive repairs. In order to balance the Titan without nerfing its combat prowess, I propose that we introduce some way for Titans to sustain damage that simply cannot be repaired without paying a visit to a Titan Foundry (the shipyard that creates Titans).

Background: In the recent history of naval combat (e.g. WW II), we see that many large capital ships can sustain heavy damage, the character of which does not completely disable the ship, but makes it unfit for continued operations. In many cases, the ship can get back to a friendly port or drydock on its own power, after temporary repairs allow the crew to stabilize the ship, regain helm control, and preserve the lives of the crew.

BUT, when the ship sustains injuries of this type, it is essentially impossible for the ship's crew to restore the ship to peak operational performance with the resources available in the field. Replacement parts for major components may need to be manufactured and installed at a drydock, which is outside the scope of abilities for on-ship repair crews.

To limit the ability of a Titan to just go through grav well after grav well, haplessly mowing down enemy fleets, starbases and modules, Titans should mimic this modern-day naval vessel behavior.

Implementation in Sins: I have a couple proposals for what conditions might cause a Titan to receive an injury, and what consequences might arise from it for the Titan (note that each of these Proposals are completely separate and should not be considered as a group; also, please remember that the numbers I present are preliminary and probably need to be adjusted for balance):

  • Proposal 1: Corvettes. Provide all Corvettes with a race-specific ability that gives them a chance to cause an Injury to a Titan. All of the abilities should only be manually targeted by the commander, with no auto-cast functionality. Each ability would apply to a group of corvettes (band select them). Each corvette would have a relatively low chance of success, but the whole swarm combined should fare much better. The manual use is to encourage a tiny bit of micro management in Titan engagements, to focus the player on these important ships. One possible layout might include:
    • TEC Corvette: "Precision Strike": The Corvette makes an attack run on a known weak spot of the Titan, causing a chain reaction and a series of explosions on the ship. This causes a Type 1 Injury. Advantages: High chance of success; no extra risk to the corvette. Disadvantages: The Titan's shields must be down or very low for the ability to have any effect.
    • Vasari Corvette: "Point-Blank Phase Missile": The Corvette makes a near-suicidal attack run against the Titan, using Vasari technology to penetrate the shielding around the Titan and fly between the shield barrier and the hull of the ship. The Corvette gets extremely close to the hull, slows down, and fires a phase missile at a key power generator, causing massive damage. This causes a Type 2 Injury. Advantages: Can be used while the Titan's shields are still up, at any strength. Disadvantages: The Corvette has a high chance of not having enough energy in its own power source to phase back OUT of the shield. So when the Corvette tries to escape from the Titan, it might hit the shield barrier and explode. Also, the phase missile could miss the critical target and only do regular damage.
    • Advent Corvette: "Shield Raid": The Corvette dives at the Titan and overloads its weapons, firing lasers using a modulating frequency. Each laser shot has a small chance of going right through the shield. The corvettes target the engines as a matter of preference, attempting to block the Titan's retreat/maneuvering. If the Corvette is unsuccessful, its weapons overheat and it can't fire for several seconds. This causes a Type 3 Injury. Advantages: Very effective with large groups of Corvettes. Can be used when the Titan's shields are up. Disadvantages: Each successful hit on the titan is not very likely to cause an injury, even if it gets through the shields. Corvette becomes offensively useless for a period if it doesn't get the job done.
  • Proposal 1, Continued: Injury Types. Each Injury type is cumulative with all the others, and the injuries can stack. Injuries can NOT be permanently removed without visiting a Titan Foundry and paying significant Credits, Metal and Crystal to have the injuries repaired. The ship can have an unlimited number of multiple injuries of the same type. It is assumed that the gameplay will be designed so that a large swarm of Corvettes could very quickly cause 5 or 10 separate injuries to a titan, resulting in about a 25 to 50% reduction in the below stats.
    • Type 1: Each Type 1 injury reduces the maximum and current hull points of the Titan by about 5%. Research can improve this slightly.
    • Type 2: Each Type 2 injury reduces the weapons damage, antimatter maximum, and current antimatter by about 3% each. Research can improve this slightly.
    • Type 3: Each Type 3 injury reduces the maximum and current shield strength of the Titan by about 3%, and reduces all of its movement characteristics (maximum speed, turn rate, phase jump charge time) by about 3%. Research can improve this slightly.
  • Proposal 2: General Damage. When the Titan's hull strength reaches a certain value, it will sustain an Injury. It's not important what type of damage or what ship is dealing the damage; all that is measured is the current hull strength of the Titan, compared to the total hull strength it can have when it's undamaged.
    • 80% Hull: When the titan's hull strength is reduced to 80% of its undamaged maximum, it receives an injury. Weapons output is reduced by 15%; movement is impaired by 10%; maximum shield and hull strengths are reduced by 15%.
    • 60% Hull: When the titan's hull strength is reduced to 60% of its undamaged maximum, it receives another injury. Weapons output is reduced a further 15%; movement is impaired another 20%; maximum shield, antimatter and hull strengths are reduced to 60% of their undamaged values.
    • 40% Hull: One of the weapons systems of the Titan (selected at random?) is completely disabled. Shield strength, hull strength and movement are only half of the maximum, and all activated abilities are disabled.
    • 20% Hull: Another of the Titan's weapons systems is disabled, and the Titan has a 50% chance of exploding each time it enters phase space. The captain of the Titan will verbally warn the commander of this fact (e.g. "I dunno if she can take it, commander, but we'll give it a try... Everybody, hold on tight!")
    • 10% Hull: The Titan can no longer attempt to phase jump, except as stated below, and its maximum shields and hull are at 25% of undamaged values.
  • Proposal 2, Continued: Injury Assistance. Some ships will acquire the ability to provide assistance to the Titan, allowing it to temporarily shrug off the effects of its most severe injury level. This will come in the form of a new activated ability that lasts for somewhere around 2 minutes at a time, with a high antimatter cost. For example, the Hoshiko can provide damage control teams to the Titan, so that a titan at the 10% Hull injury level would now operate as if it's only at the 20% Hull injury level, for 2 minutes' time. This would again allow it to phase jump. Similar effect would be applied at the other injury levels, but the effect does not stack if multiple ships provide assistance. A high-level research unlock would allow the assistance to remove two injuries instead of one.
  • Proposal 3: Capital Ships. Cap Ships become the major threat to Titans instead of Corvettes, by developing unique race-specific weaponry that is designed to punch through a Titan's defenses. These new weapons can be retrofitted onto the primary combat capital ship class of each race through research, and they are designed to be extremely effective against Titans, but only moderately so against anything smaller.
    • Example: the Kol Battleship could be retrofitted with a focusing dish, which allows its multiple beam arrays to combine into one large energy buildup, which is then transmitted to the target. Causes injuries similar to the Type 1 injuries of Proposal 1. This ability has an increasingly high chance to miss against smaller and more mobile ships; against modules it does less damage because of their high armor. Can't even try to target anything smaller than a cruiser with this ability (fighters, corvettes, frigates just give an error beep like trying to attack fighters with a battleship now).

This will probably fall on deaf ears, but that's OK. I had to get it out of my system. :P

26,290 views 16 replies
Reply #1 Top

Lol--I think you'll need to start your own development there.

Reply #2 Top

I like this idea, after reading it I believe adding separate hit points to say the Ankylon's "wings" could also work. If a wing is destroyed damage on that side could be tripled which would encourage returning to the foundry to get it fixed.

Reply #3 Top

I think that you are not too far off from what the developers are thinking. I found these inside of the gameinfo folder inside of the Rebellion folders.

AbilityTargetAntimatterTanks.entity
AbilityTargetBackupGenerators.entity
AbilityTargetBridge.entity
AbilityTargetComputerCore.entity
AbilityTargetDamageControl.entity
AbilityTargetEngines.entity
AbilityTargetHangarBays.entity
AbilityTargetShieldGenerators.entity
AbilityTargetWeapons.entity

Who knows, maybe you arrived to this idea second while the developers arrived to it first?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Yottsu, reply 3
I think that you are not too far off from what the developers are thinking. I found these inside of the gameinfo folder inside of the Rebellion folders.

AbilityTargetAntimatterTanks.entity
AbilityTargetBackupGenerators.entity
AbilityTargetBridge.entity
AbilityTargetComputerCore.entity
AbilityTargetDamageControl.entity
AbilityTargetEngines.entity
AbilityTargetHangarBays.entity
AbilityTargetShieldGenerators.entity
AbilityTargetWeapons.entity

Who knows, maybe you arrived to this idea second while the developers arrived to it first?
End of Yottsu's quote

 

That sounds awesome! I confirmed that these files exist in my install as well, but unfortunately, I can't read SOASE's binary format :P and we don't have the bin/txt tool yet.

I did manage to "see" a reference to "HUD_ICON_INCENDIARY_SHELLS" in the binary (apparently text strings are only mildly encoded in the binary with NUL characters between them). I also saw several references to "Invalid", suggesting that this functionality is not yet implemented in the native code. This, of course, is not surprising since this is Beta 1.

I think you're spot on that IC is planning to implement something very similar to what I suggested. I am sure that whatever they decide on will probably take its own shape, and will not directly resemble something I wrote here, because they'll be working off of their own designs rather than the forums.

But still, it's neat to know that the solution I envisaged is at least a candidate for being put in the final product. So, yes, Titans will remain extremely strong, but they'll have an Achilles' Heel (and NOT just spamming them with Ogrovs!) manifesting, in some way, as either irreparable damage, or damage that requires retreating to spacedock to receive long and costly repairs.

It fits in beautifully with the 20th century naval combat subtext of the game mechanics (the Akkan always reminded me of an Iowa battleship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_class_battleship ), and I really like that aspect. 

Reply #5 Top

I'd love to see modular titans that can have sections of their hull and abilities destroyed while the ship remains and require re-building to repair the lost sections.

It does look like corvettes will have some of your ideas on them.

Reply #6 Top

It is somewhat reassuring knowing that you do not need a titan to fight one off now.

Also, to Allquixotic, I think that you just need an ordinary hexadecimal editor. I am not sure of any good ones, but looking at cnet might not be a bad idea.

Reply #7 Top

I like it. Keeps from nerfing it to a really expensive capital ship but makes it from being an auto win. Would like to see something to stop the levels from getting out of hand though. A ship is only as good as its' crew. If a lot of crew is lost, perhaps some levels should be lost. Problem I've seen, beyond what you've described,  is that a difference of a level or two in a Titan can rolfstomp anything it encounters. Possibly add damage to crew compliment to keep from getting the unstoppable juggernaut level, but not impossible to reach it. Make you really baby that thing and question just how certain you are that they won't be able to severely cripple your Titan.

 

Anyway, love the idea. Hope they think about this one at least, if not already.

Reply #8 Top

While I haven't played the beta, I slightly disagree with you, mainly because this might encourage overly zealous spamming of these anti-Titan abilities and ships by players in desperate situations, and also because of the potential economic ramifications. But I do agree about limiting Titans combat effectiveness.

 

Perhaps instead of  reducing its effectiveness by injuries that can be caused by excessive spamming, perhaps we could limit the Titan's ability to regenerate or regain full operational systems. For example once a Titan has been reduced to 80% HP, it can no longer regenerate its HP or SP back to 100%, and looses some of its weapons systems, and at 60%, 40% and 20% further limitations kick in. But unless it hits these threshold lvls, its HP and SP will simply regenerate back to 100% or its previous threshold lvl.

Another method might be to split the HP of the Titan into distinct zones based on its superstructure, with weapon systems and abilities tied into these zones. For example, a Titan might have an engine block which has its own HP that is seperate from the other ship areas, and can be targeted by enemy fleets once the shields are knocked down. Should it be destroyed, the Titan loses a significant portion of its ability to move and use any abilities that has anything to do with augmenting maneuverability.

 

To regain full operational status, they will have to report back to Foundries for extensive repairs, which should cost you a fair bit of resources like you said. But regardless of dmg, they should still be able to escape via phase jumping.

 

I also like your idea of using the Anti-Structure ships to shoot at them, since technically, Titans are nothing more than mobile, super charged star bases. I mean, Titans should be destructible by something other than a Titan, and since they're WAY BIGGER than almost any structure, you should be able to shoot it with anything but super weapons.

Reply #9 Top

I don't know about everyone else, but if my titan explodes because it tries to phase jump away because its too damaged... that would just suck. A death resulting from these injuries when they are intended to get the titan back to base for repairs sort of defeats the purpose.

I do like the idea of corvetts having a niche role against titans, because as it is now they are very weak. I had about 75 corvetts flying around and I felt like an equal supply of LRMs or even cobalts would have been better. Maybe I'm using them wrong. At least they can attack strike craft, I''ll have to experiment more.

Anyways, I had another idea for a player to use to hinder an opposing titan somewhat. The new capital ship with its boarding parties would be able to launch a boarding action against a titan, however, the titan would NEVER be captured. Instead, as the boarding party battles the crew of the titan and losses are taken on both sides, experienced titan crew members are lost resulting in a LOSS of experience points for the titan. This would have to be balanced, but something like a loss of 1 - 5 exp per second that the ability lasts. This loss of experience would not decrease the level of the titan, just make it take longer to get to the next one. It would at least provide a way for the opposing player to slow down the dreaded accumulation of titan levels.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting capwdg, reply 9
I don't know about everyone else, but if my titan explodes because it tries to phase jump away because its too damaged... that would just suck. A death resulting from these injuries when they are intended to get the titan back to base for repairs sort of defeats the purpose.

I do like the idea of corvetts having a niche role against titans, because as it is now they are very weak. I had about 75 corvetts flying around and I felt like an equal supply of LRMs or even cobalts would have been better. Maybe I'm using them wrong. At least they can attack strike craft, I''ll have to experiment more.

Anyways, I had another idea for a player to use to hinder an opposing titan somewhat. The new capital ship with its boarding parties would be able to launch a boarding action against a titan, however, the titan would NEVER be captured. Instead, as the boarding party battles the crew of the titan and losses are taken on both sides, experienced titan crew members are lost resulting in a LOSS of experience points for the titan. This would have to be balanced, but something like a loss of 1 - 5 exp per second that the ability lasts. This loss of experience would not decrease the level of the titan, just make it take longer to get to the next one. It would at least provide a way for the opposing player to slow down the dreaded accumulation of titan levels.
End of capwdg's quote

Do not forget - those boarding parties are TEC specific - doing this method will put the other four factions at a disadvantage. Do not get me wrong, it is a wonderful idea, but the Advent and Vasari need something similar.

Reply #11 Top

I kinda like this too... but the way I'd do it is subsystems. So, you could, for instance knock out the engines(see *), then the shields. Or maybe special abilities are a subsystem, so you could knock out that annoying ability which is causing you such a headache, then you're opponent has to decide whether to keep on truckin' or go back and get it repaired.

However, these types of ideas do run the risk of making titans too weak very, very easily. I would propose that if there were subsystems, the sum of their HP be greater than the ships' total hull. And then, for critical systems (potentially all) like engines/shields, the crew is able to repair the subsystem up to a certain amount, but has to get repairs to get back to 100%. Or there could even be a stacking repair percentage that just builds up after so much repairing (ie, the titan gets in a fight and subsystem A is knocked down to 50%, which the crew then repairs up to 95% and it has 5% unrepairable damage. next fight, same setup, now it's at 10% unrepairable)

(*) Okay, not really 'take out'.... otherwise, how would you get it repaired? Mostly, i chose this because it's easy to conceptualize.

Reply #12 Top

Yeah...right now titans are like Venators versus the Enterprise.

Hahahahahaha...I had to do that AJ.

Reply #13 Top

I am sorry to say, but those abilities I found belonged to that of Corvettes.
I posted this on my thread, but I will post it here. I ripped this info from C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\sins of a solar empire rebellion\GameInfo, and the English.str file.

We must remember, though, that these abilities stack. So in the end, if enough Corvettes are built, the TEC Rebel Titan will never have a chance to use another ability since its antimatter is kept getting stolen.

AbilityTargetAntimatterTanks.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to deplete its target's antimatter reserves.")
AbilityTargetBackupGenerators.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to reduce its target's shield mitigation for some time.")
AbilityTargetBridge.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to prevent its target from using abilities for some time.")
AbilityTargetComputerCore.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to reduce its target's chance to hit for some time.")
AbilityTargetDamageControl.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to reduce its target's shield restoration rate for some time.")
AbilityTargetEngines.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to reduce its target's movement speed for some time.")
AbilityTargetHangarBays.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to prevent its target from launching strikecraft for some time.")
AbilityTargetShieldGenerators.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to reduce its target's shield restoration rate for some time.")
AbilityTargetWeapons.entity ("The corvette's weapons have a chance to increase its target's weapon cooldowns for some time.")

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Yottsu, reply 10


Do not forget - those boarding parties are TEC specific - doing this method will put the other four factions at a disadvantage. Do not get me wrong, it is a wonderful idea, but the Advent and Vasari need something similar.
End of Yottsu's quote

Ah bummer, I was assuming the other races new cap ship would have similar boarding abilities. Looks like they are each getting a second battleship type.

Humm, I could see the advent having some psy power to "mind wipe" enemy crew to erase EXP. Not sure about the Vasari, something nano-bot related?

 

About the corvettes, yes their abilities stack, but not nearly enough. I had about 75 of them and never saw more than 3 debuffs stack on a target. That isnt enough for me. I would be ok if corvettes had more than 1 debuff, this would mean some overlap, but thats ok because they will be in different combos among the 6 factions. (and it looks like there are 9 debuff types available anyways)

Reply #15 Top

there was a post with all the titan's abilities... no 'mind wipe' was there unless you count the deletion of the post  o_O

Reply #16 Top

Great Idea OP.

Big ships need even bigger repairs :).

Also you can actually buy yourself time from constant titan attacks and make corvettes useful at the same time.