[Suggestion] Factions should have weaknesses

I don't like the term "weakness" in this context...I prefer "differences"...

This may seem like petty semantics, so here is what I mean....Advent lack a refinery, which one could argue is a weakness...however, Advent do have resource focus, which one could argue as a strength...

Now, in practice, lacking refineries isn't a big deal because they are too expensive to generally be useful, and resource focus is hardly a strength since it is pretty useless...but in theory, let's just say refineries are really useful, and let's even say resource focus is buffed to be comparable to the economic power of refineries...

Instead of saying "well Advent's weakness is they don't have refineries", I'd rather look at it and say "TEC and Vasari have refineries while Advent has resource focus"....

So for example, I'd pair each "weakness" with a "strength"...if the TEC rebels have less logistic slots, then maybe they have more tactical slots...or perhaps the Vasari Rebels have weaker culture in general, but their capital ships are better at resisting culture than those of the loyalists....

Just my thoughts...

Lore wise I don't think that makes much sense to simply forget about a warship or instantly double the price of a ship. No trade would really destroy the purpose of the TEC. Lore in this is continuing the timeline, not making it wibblywobbily so your more advanced than 10 years ago but less advanced than 20. I agree the new faction powers are additive but they don't have both strengths. Tec rebels are good offense and get bonus for it, loyalists are good defense and get bonus there in addition to pre-rebellion weaknesses. I think they are different enough to spice it up without losing what made them unique in trinity. Adding weakness for weakness sake would mess with the logical timeline and I think ruin a lot of people's game. 

Maybe in SoaSE 2.0 the reboot they could implement it.

I would say no artificially introduced weaknesses like these are needed. You already have weakness, when you lack some of the great things your enemies have at their disposal.  When they can move their starbase to other grav-well for example and you cant, it is your weakness as much as it is their strength.

Wait since when can the starbases move gravity wells. The vasari one can move around yes but not switch gravity wells....

Vasari Rebels are going to be able to phase jump their starbases according to Blair.

Dear God....and we thought Truce amongst Rogues was bad....

Ha! You aren't even coupling that with them being able to let allies use their phase jump stabilizers.

Their weakness is the 2GB limit!

No, he was saying there should be a weakness to each, not a difference.  Read the OP for what it is instead of putting words in his mouth.

Examples/ideas:

TEC Loyalists: No Orgov (or much more expensive), LRMs are more expensive, removed last levels of weapon upgrades.

TEC Rebels: No trade port and mine upgrades, less logistics and tactical slots.

Vasari Loyalists: More expensive phase stabilizers, defenses and Orkuli, removed the final phase jump detection upgrade.

Vasari Rebels: More vulnerable to hostile culture, Karrastra destructors more expensive, can't build Orkulus in hostile grav. well.

I like the TEC Loyalist idea of no Orgov, but how about more range to the LRM's for the cost boost?  Interesting on the weapon nerf, but these are the tankers after all.  Give a tactical slot bonus +4, but none to logistics.  Could they do with a +20% research rate item that lacks accelerating the research?

TEC Rebels, no cluster warheads for LRM's, no mines, but longer range Orgov.  Give a logistics slot boost +4 earlier.  If pirate ships had abilities, they could be researched so the pirates fighting with them are meaner -but at added expense.

Good ideas.  Governments have split and while certain advancements have been made maybe some things were given up or not focused on.

So in all reality the vasari get TWO+ titans at the same time.  I hope you will only be able to warp one of these into a gravity well...  That or recquire a starbase with movement capability to have a 150 logistics cost added to it.  Will the new starbase be able to bomb planets as well?  Or have the developers in their wisdom decided that this might be a tad overpowered?

If this is true I REALLY hope the advent starfish gets a single target dps upgrade vs these things.  Advents already inherent single target dps weakness is going to be severely magnified if a lot of things aren't improved for them soon.  We shall see, i predict advent being tested last so the developers will have to deal with less flaming because they failed at balance.

Oh I understand what he is saying...I just don't really like the idea of "weaknesses" per se...I mean, TEC without ogrovs?  Vasari without offensive SBing?  I'm sorry but I'm not a fan of such things...it's not that differentiating the factions is a bad idea, this just isn't the approach I'd prefer...I'd rather differentiate the factions by other means such as by providing unique bonuses or by making the factions different (ie Advent have resource focus instead of refineries)...

I see no listing as to why there should be 'weaknesses'. possible exploits and examples of what a 'weakness' could be are irrelevant to this argument. Please say why you think this is important.

I, for one, am against this idea. Already the races have a rock-paper-scissors feel to them, and the faction split gives paper the option to come down harder on rock or make it easier to fight scissors, based on your choice.

As it stands, you don't even get the benefits of the faction until later on (unless something changed Im unaware of). The only thing you can get early on is the Faction-specific Titan. I would rather, since we're choosing our faction at the character screen, get some benefit immediately specific to the faction, so as to differentiate faction-specific strategies early on. The more strategies that are on the table, the more dynamic the game is.

Well, the loyalists could get development mandate at tier 3 or 4 instead of tier 6...maybe give them planet shield generators and/or emergency infrastructure at lower tiers too...

The rebels could get the krosov ability (heavy fallout or something) at tier 2 or 3 (maybe have it require the krosov prototype tech)...might as well put the planet bombing damage techs down there too...rebels already have TaR and if that stays in it's current form then loyalists certainly could use the above advantages (assuming the titans are made more comparable, of course)...

The Corvettes could be a good type of differentiation if we had a more clear use for them and their abilities...

To be honest, in a way I wouldn't even be all that upset if each faction had their own unique capital ship...would require a rewrite of the abilities but it's doable...

Loyalists get the Dunov, Rebels get the new one (whatever it's name is, Corsev maybe?)...it'd be important for the new ship to have an ability interrupt (since magnetize does that) and an AM depletion ability, so the current abilities would have to be changed...maybe boarding parties disables abilities and hurts AM?  Who knows...

There's a whole bunch of things that could be done other than instituting weaknesses...

Not really sure I can agree with rock / paper / scissors. The only reace that has an inherent advantage over another is the Vasari over the Advent due to their phase missiles.

One could argue that TEC is better than Vasari, and that Advent actually is better than TEC...

The former is I think a given (TEC got the upperhand after last update)...the latter would be a tough sell but the Advent battleball does actually perform quite nicely against TEC and until recently Advent hands done could take TEC in the late game...

The existence of the rock/paper/scissors thing is debatable but I think you can make a decent argument for it...however, should this triad exist?  I think the answer is no...I don't like the idea of a faction countering another faction...

If the factions are/will be just a rock/paper/scissors thing, then something needs to be changed...

So the Rebels idealogy is to leave the system - forgot that haha

^^   i think loyalists are leaving and rebels can jump starbases ^^

Whilst exact details are scarce on the ground i'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that you can still only have 1 starbase per grav well, and whilst it isn't tottally clear the current implication is that you have to pay to move a starbase, or possibbly buy a specific upgrade. Eithier way i doubt it will be all that simple.

I'd also expect the advent rebel titan to create more complaints, before the thread was deleted i got a look at some ability pictures somone posted for it. Based on those, once it hits level 6 don't expect to ever be able to kill it or it's supporting fleet without your forces getting mulched in the process. It bassiclly garuntees a phyric victory as the best an opponnent can achive.

There never is a guarentee of victory unless a titan comes with an I win button.  Yet that I win button could be prevented by a player putting proper pressure on their opponent so that they can't build the titan with the I win button.  the debate rages on...

For the record, Karlbar99, I consider the idea of giving the vasari the capability of moving their starbases to another gravity well to be extremely OP.  I don't care how the developers attempt to balance it, even if they have it tech level 8 with a very expensive upgrade price tag. 

The vasari starbases and their health /weapon upgrades are/were the best use of credits in the game. (now second only to titan production).  The only limit keeping them remotely balanced was the fact that they never could leave their gravity well.  Any vasari starbase movement upgrade that doesn't also come with a heavy logistics cost (ballpark 100-150 logistics) will be overpowered.  Even then, the vasari will then be able to have their titan, plus their warped in "surprise" starbase, as well as their strong phase missile based fleet.  I predict a lot of vasari players in multiplayer if thise does become a reality.

Facing the vasari in the endgame will mean that you will be facing an opponents fleet, and a fully upgraded starbase, along with their titan pretty much anywhere you decide to attack.  Also, they will be able to attack with this setup as well, so prepare for the vasari to just strong arm their way through your empire.

At the same time, it is a cool idea.  + 1 for developer creativity.  -4 for developer balance.

I guess the idea of rock/paper/scissors is too clear-cut. Seleuceia had the gist, but let me clarify: In rock/paper/scissors, there's no way to win with rock if the other guy has paper (This is not what I meant).
What I meant was: If you pick Advent, you will have the easiest time opposing TEC. On the other hand, you will have the hardest time playing against Vasari. And a mirror match is a mirror match.

Obviously, player skill, map layout, allies, and luck all play a role in determining a winner and I was speaking of an idealized situation that boiled matters down to just the race differences.

I agree

Without reiterating what I just qualified above; I think it adds a layer of strategy. The races will never be perfectly 'balanced' because they're different races with different strengths and weaknesses. But if all races have a strength against exactly 1 race and that is different for each... well, from a macroscopic viewpoint, they are balanced; because each has the opportunity to excel in just the same manner. It also irons out the differences in multiplayer, in my opinion, because it promotes diversity.

To detail the 'layer of strategy': lets say there's a 3 player game, 1 of each race, and we take the rock/paper/scissor view as fact (though still not certain victory). Furthermore, you know where each player's home planet is immediately, and they know where yours is. Now, you are faced with a choice... Do you go on the offensive vs the 'easy' win, or do you start planning your defense vs the 'hard'? Do you think you should get going on the 'difficult' fight early on before they get an edge? Can you maybe manipulate the fights and push the 'easier' player into the 'more difficult' player? What are the other players planning, and what is the best approach to face off against their strategies?

At least, that is how I see the game. I hope that the factions continue this trend.

Not unless they've got their superweapns as well, i'm pretty sure we've been told the target needs to be a phase stabaliser node. Also if it's an actual upgrade/s thats going to curtail the power of the starbase as they won;t necesserilly be able to max their hull and sheild upgrades. Not to mention that everyones getting new techs. TEC loyalists aren't going to give a damm about it. Why should they, between twin fortresses and the militia techs they can maul the whole lot without a fleet of any kind, and obliterate it handilly with only a small supporting fleet. Well at least until the titans hit a highish level.The Rebel titan allready has the perfect starbase and titan counter built in. I'm pretty sure disorentation would put a stop to them too with a bit of supporting firepower. and i'm sure there are other options.

Yes being able to warp a fully upgraded starbase into an enemy grav well would have been OP in dimplomacy. Now? I strongly doubt it. There's been too many addittions.