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Chronobomb

Join Date 02/2006

Rebel TEC is too powerful, can wait to see Vasari/ Advent. On to the Loyalists....

I know this is beta and will be balanced but the Rebel TEC faction is super powerful. I felt really charged after playing and wanted to give a quick review and ask few questions.

Starting with the rocking Ragnarok. Its cannons can chew threw anything it runs into. The Gauss Cannons are a little too accurate. They do as much damage as the rail cannon but fire far 16 shots to one and are brutally accurate on anything larger than a frigate. Throw in Targeting Link and they are even accurate across 1/2 the solar system on frigates. Need to really tone down the accuracy. but love the ship. Scatter gun vs Explosive shot is a tough call. I think scatter is perfectly balanced but should also work on mines. The ability to over charge scatter gun doesn't seem to do anything? Also flak looks impressive but seems to be hitting only one bomber at a time.

Rebel Alliance is way over powered at the moment. Dark fleet only wishes it could match this. Ships warp in as fast as I get the command points and pirates ships supported by Ragnarok and your usual command fleet make an never ending supply of ships. Add in uprising and I found several planets empty and devoid of life but the rebel fleet that nuked them The ability seems to incorrectly work on Vasari too as they allied with me when I researched it as well. Add in the pirate fleet jumping to wherever you are fighting and you get a massive reinforcement at no command cost.

Lastly the gfx upgrade is really great but can we get moving turrets on the Titans. It really detracts because their hard points are so visible.

I am very impressed. Is their a story mode this time? Also the starting movie is way above Ironclad's usual that I watched it twice. It would be awesome if this reflects Sins 2 engine instead of being entirely CG.

Because there is no balance yet, strategy is hard to formulate. I will say that TEC has always been my least favorite faction but this just might swing it around for me. I was not impressed with the Diplomacy expansion since I always did most of mine at gunpoint. This game really makes the upgrades in Diplomacy expansion shine though and rebel alliance makes it a must for research. I just never gave Diplomacy a fair shake.

On to the loyalist Faction......

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Yes Pirate Mercenaries may seem very powerful/overpowered, but if the pirate faction is eliminated, you WILL NOT get any more free pirate ships. So don't even think of researching it on a no pirate map. In my eyes this makes the tech balanced, as it really doesn't take much to eliminate the pirates from the match, especially with the new titans.

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@OP: You seem to be unaware of several key game mechanics.

1. How many vishual FX the ship fires has nothing to do with how much damage is caused.

2. Anything shooting at anything else that isn't a fighter or a bomber is 100% accurrate unless in an asteroid feild. Even if the FX appears to miss the game registers it as a hit.

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

uberpretzel. are you sure? when pirates are turned off... this tech still works.

now, if there was a map with zero pirates bases, and pirates left on, such that they are defeated immediantly... ya that would make sence that tech wouldnt work.

But. a map with no pirate bases and pirates left off.... what happens?

something to test.

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Worry not, the devs would absolutely never throw in a ship like that without it having some weaknesses. Yes the tec titans are powerful, but one of their biggest weaknesses is turn rate.(the derpy AI doesn't count officially) all the advent and vasari need is faster ships and then the tec's advantage is cancelled out. No innuendos intended, but it doesnt matter how big your cannon is if you can't score a hit with it.

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Quoting rogue_ghost,

reply 4

I have played with all the titans with the exception of the advent loyalist. I will say that neither of them are completely finished. However i have noticed that the tec seem to be much more powerful that the advent or vasari. However, that being said, the vasari and advent have always had an advantage or two over the tec. The only reason the war wasn't over long ago was because the tec have a ton of firepower.

Worry not, the devs would absolutely never throw in a ship like that without it having some weaknesses. Yes the tec titans are powerful, but one of their biggest weaknesses is turn rate.(the derpy AI doesn't count officially) all the advent and vasari need is faster ships and then the tec's advantage is cancelled out. No innuendos intended, but it doesnt matter how big your cannon is if you can't score a hit with it.

The TEC Loyalist Titan is, in my honest opinion, too overpowered. I do not mind it having the ability to repair itself, but it does it at such an absurd rate that it is almost impossible to take it down with a fleet, especially with disruption matrix going off. The only counter to that is to use a sturdy ship that can disable its abilities or deplete its antimatter - both Advent (Detonate Antimatter can not target Titans and Disciple vessels can only be used if they are used in overwhelming amounts (See Disruption Matrix)) and Vasari lack a reliable way to disable a Titan's abilities (But I could be wrong with the Vasari, since I do not really play them).

The Advent and Vasari need more than faster ships, seeing that TEC get a tech that lower mass (With no prerequisite research mind you.).

Also, speaking of the strongest titans, as far as I can tell, the Vasari Rebels have the worst Titan while the TEC Rebels have the second worst. Why is the Vasari Titan terrible you may ask? The thing has as much health as roughly three capital ships, all of which are at level ten, but more than likely it is less than even that. The TEC Rebel's Titan's problem is that it thinks that it is an Advent ship when it clearly is not - it simply can not produce the necessary amounts of antimatter fast enough to effectively use all of its abilities.

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]it simply can not produce the necessary amounts of antimatter fast enough to effectively use all of its abilities.

yottsu that is true, however with the research upgrades it can be somewhat offset. if you think about it, it is like a bigger version of the kol. without antimatter its a really big brick.

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I also am not fond of the Vasari loyalist titan, but it's so unfinished that I'm not sure it's fair to pass judgement at all. The other 5 for the most part feel done(ish)

I'm not sure why you feel the TEC rebel titan is weak however It has ridiculous single target DPS and is basically the ultimate quick shot capital ship sniper, as well as the fastest way kill enemy titans/starbases. (At max it's snipe is 5k, and can fire every 7ish seconds) And with proper upgrades, it can fire off a lot of snipes in a row before running dry.

I'm also one of the unimpressed with the TEC loyalist titan. As tanky as it is, it has no real ability to put out large focus or full AOE damage. Just heal through it's lackluster damage while killing it's support off. A wall of HP can be dealt with at ones convenience, something capable of murdering your capitals or entire fleet in seconds must be handled ASAP.

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Timmaigh

Join Date 05/2009

+76

Quoting Yargnit,

reply 7

I actually wonder if the Vasari rebel titan is purposefully the worst by far because of their jump-capable starbases? using multiple starbases like this, combined with the Vasari's super weapon being able to create phase lanes directly to enemy planets basically means you could assault a near infinite number of your opponents core planets with titan-like firepower (and even more HP) simultaneously, while still having your entire fleet free to engage theirs. And 1v1 a Vasari starbase could easily demolish any defending starbase, while tearing through any other nearby defensive structures also. Coupled with a strong titan, this strategy would be insanely powerful.

I also am not fond of the Vasari loyalist titan, but it's so unfinished that I'm not sure it's fair to pass judgement at all. The other 5 for the most part feel done(ish)

I'm not sure why you feel the TEC rebel titan is weak however It has ridiculous single target DPS and is basically the ultimate quick shot capital ship sniper, as well as the fastest way kill enemy titans/starbases. (At max it's snipe is 5k, and can fire every 7ish seconds) And with proper upgrades, it can fire off a lot of snipes in a row before running dry.

I'm also one of the unimpressed with the TEC loyalist titan. As tanky as it is, it has no real ability to put out large focus or full AOE damage. Just heal through it's lackluster damage while killing it's support off. A wall of HP can be dealt with at ones convenience, something capable of murdering your capitals or entire fleet in seconds must be handled ASAP.

You havent seen its Charybdis_Dark Fleet ability then, i suppose. In current state, once you have it, you just need to research the fleet supply and in a minute or 2, the titan will summon shitload of ships to its coordinates. For free. I never built a single carrier cruiser, despite that, i had 60 wings of strikecraft at my disposal. It is uberly cool, so much, i doubt, it is going to stay like this, once the game is done.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the titan is almost 2x as big as Ankylon

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Quoting Timmaigh,

reply 8

I guess it's just a personal thing then, I've always hated the dark fleet stuff and never research it because I despise not being able to select what type of units I get. If I could choose the units I got from it then it'd be different. I guess I could test it out, if it does come fast enough then it doesn't really matter. But I usually build up a fleet to the point that I can pretty much kill whatever w/o taking many losses. (I've wiped out a dozen capitals at once w/o losing more than a couple HC's many a time) So free replenishment isn't all that valuable compared to getting the right mix where stuff doesn't die in the first place. (IMO anyway)

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Quoting Yargnit,

reply 7

I actually wonder if the Vasari rebel titan is purposefully the worst by far because of their jump-capable starbases? using multiple starbases like this, combined with the Vasari's super weapon being able to create phase lanes directly to enemy planets basically means you could assault a near infinite number of your opponents core planets with titan-like firepower (and even more HP) simultaneously, while still having your entire fleet free to engage theirs. And 1v1 a Vasari starbase could easily demolish any defending starbase, while tearing through any other nearby defensive structures also. Coupled with a strong titan, this strategy would be insanely powerful.

I also am not fond of the Vasari loyalist titan, but it's so unfinished that I'm not sure it's fair to pass judgement at all. The other 5 for the most part feel done(ish)

I'm not sure why you feel the TEC rebel titan is weak however It has ridiculous single target DPS and is basically the ultimate quick shot capital ship sniper, as well as the fastest way kill enemy titans/starbases. (At max it's snipe is 5k, and can fire every 7ish seconds) And with proper upgrades, it can fire off a lot of snipes in a row before running dry.

I'm also one of the unimpressed with the TEC loyalist titan. As tanky as it is, it has no real ability to put out large focus or full AOE damage. Just heal through it's lackluster damage while killing it's support off. A wall of HP can be dealt with at ones convenience, something capable of murdering your capitals or entire fleet in seconds must be handled ASAP.

I can now see why the Vasari Rebel's was made the weakest, but in multiplayer, it is rare to see anything above tier five techs, and if you wish to have your starbase phase jump, it requires a tier seven tech. Also, it takes quite a bit of time to upgrade that same starbase to assure that it will destroy the planet it jumps into.

The TEC Rebel Titan's snipe is wonderful for singling out targets, but shield mitigation and armor does get factored in, resulting in less damage being done, and in a mid/late game, when your titan is accompanying a fleet, the rest of the capital ships in the opponent's fleet will have a raised shield mitigation.

The TLT is overpowered because it can tank and can do AOEs. After some time, its Disruption Matrix will destroy anything less than a capital ship since the thing can not seem to grasp the concept of taking damage, resulting more damage output over its lifetime. It simply is not fair that the TL get a Titan that can do it all.

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While I havent really played with the vasari rebel titan or have any extensive mp experience, I would still like to give my opinion if you dont mind

I'd say the vasari rebel is one of the more interesting titans out there. it doesnt have alot of staying power, but its abbilities seems rather powerfull. the question is if it has enough staying power to last untill you finish building your fort, so it can take over the assault. the strategy seems alot more viable in the late game compared to the early game(since you can bring a fort with you), so i'm hoping they'll get some other things to help them get through the early/mid game.

maybe (even) faster fort upgrades and build times? from what i can tell the vasari rebel titan can seriously hamper a large portion of a fleet for atleast 20-30 seconds. being able to construct a fort in such a window of oppertunity might make it a viable option, even if its incredibly high risk.

I agree with most of what was said about the tec titans. Though the rebel titan might be able to add more in larger fights through scattershot and explosive shot. Both of which arent very good against tec, tec has the highest armor of all races so reducing armor affects them the least. and their fleet doesnt really rely on aoe buffs so pushing it appart wont have a lot of effect either.. If explosive shot was a bit larger or pushed further (i dont know if its level increases its radius but at lvl 1/2 it isnt nearly big enough for this.). It could push advent cruisers/frigates outside of their capital's buff ranges and you could, possibly, use it to pick off part of their fleet before they manage to regroup (same applies in a lesser extend to the vasari and their carriers group heal). And since it has a rediculous amount of base damage -and- fairly high health/shield/armor compared to the other titans, it wouldnt be very balanced to give it alot of utility aswell.

My 2 cents.

Again, i dont have any MP experience so this is basically all baseless speculations

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The Vasari rebel titan has an interesting concept with it's abilities. Basically it has a trigger ability that does a slow DMG/AM drain AOE DOT that has to be applied first before using it's large big hitting ability (and buff it's lvl6 ultimate as well). But both are rather short range, and originate from the center of the titan itself, so to be effective you really need to disable auto-casts, fly it into the middle of the enemy fleet, and set off a set of abilities in the proper order.

The challenge to that is that for a titan it really isn't all that resilient. At equal points into the game. (Titan is lvl6 at this point, while starting cap ship has reached 10 already) it only has just over twice the HP of the cap ship. Meanwhile the starbase has nearly twice the HP again as the titan, plus it's forward shield. The starbase also has significantly more raw damage output w/o requiring nearly the amount of micromanagement.

Here's the raw numbers for comparison. I'd post screen shots, but I don't want them to get taken down.

All numbers are with maximum research finished in all areas. All points available for spending went into raw offence/defense where applicable.

Orkulus Starbase;

Hull: 27225, Shield: 13125, Armor: 36, Average DMG (all weapons): 692 [Incoming forward DMG reduced to 1/2 50% of the time]

Kultorask Titan (lvl6);

Hull: 9734, Shield: 12900, Armor: 23, Average DMG (all weapons): 576

Evacuator colony cap (lvl10);

Hull: 6515, Shield: 4079. Armor: 17, Average DMG (all weapons): 122

My starting capital ship hit lvl10 roughly about the time the titan hit lvl6, so I think it's a decently fair comparison point. Titan's usually seem to reach lvl8 about the time all 14 of your other capital's reach lvl10 for reference. That happen's quite slowly, and will still be a long time from when it hit lvl6, but once the rest of the capitals are lvl10 the titan will shoot from lvl8 to lvl10 quite rapidly.

On that note, since titan's take two capital ship slots, maybe I'd suggest that they earn two shares of XP instead of 1? (So with 1 titan and 1 capital the titan would get 66.7% and the capital would get 33.3% instead of 50/50, and with 1 titan and 14 capitals it would get 12.5% and each other capital would get 6.25%, instead of it and all 14 capital's each getting 6.7%) This would help quite a bit with your titan leveling insanely slowly when mixed with a large fleet, and allow it to hit lvl10 roughly at the same time as your other capitals.

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From what I've seen so far, the Tec Rebel titan follows the philosophy of "the best defense is a good offense." Sniping from across a gravity well, I generally manage to drop the shield on an opposing titan or starbase before I even get into normal weapons range. And with most of the upgrades on it, as well as anti-matter research, It can almost sit and snipe eventually. Its damage output is also insane. I'll say that it still takes forever and a half to kill another titan, but one on one it seems to kill much faster than it can be killed.

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Quoting KarlBar99,

reply 2

@OP: You seem to be unaware of several key game mechanics.

2. Anything shooting at anything else that isn't a fighter or a bomber is 100% accurate unless in an asteroid field. Even if the FX appears to miss the game registers it as a hit.

That is not true. If it were, there would be no need for the Targeting Up-link ability that one of the cap ships has. There is not 100% accuracy. The FX may or may not register, but damage is only if it hits (ecept for very minor misses).

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Accuracy is reduced in asteroid belts, and there are skills that lower to hit chance, but I'm fairly certain base hit chance is 100%.

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@LupusVir: I can copy you the rebellion accurracy code up, it's avalibile to anyone in plain txt format in the games gameinfo folder. It is as it allways has been 100%. Thats why targeting uplink is so crappy. The Accurracy boost is tottally maningless.

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i personally think that the TEC loyalist titan could outlast ragnarok with its furious defence ability it is virtually unbeatable

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The problem is the Ragnarok can walk away from the Ankylon and is immune to most disabilities from Cap ships. The Ankylon is pretty much unkillable in its own influence area and can decimate fleets. It is not a titan killer though. I have to take every world the other player has before I usually finish off their titan.

Still fun though to be the Juggernaut that while slow, inexorably grinds down their opponents. Plus the Ankylon repairs so fast it can move into the next system before the Ragnarok can be refit.

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true but it is still good to know that your titan has a 1/1000 chance of death

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sareth01

Join Date 08/2008

+50

The ragnarok as it is makes killing one very difficult. It is almost impossible to engage with an early fleet. The ankylon is exactly the same way, the big difference is TIME. The ragnarok destroys your fleet with 2 abilities in quick succession, it has the "surprise" firepower of a marza, but is much faster then this. This fleet loss will level it up, and now you have lost a portion/all your fleet and instantly have a stronger, harder target to kill. This specifically is what makes this ship overpowered vs. the ankylon. The ankylon is more balanced because it kills opposing fleet slowly. I for one would say that the scattershot ability should do far less damage(100 base, imo), and have a stronger debuff.

It can take out your entire fleet in seconds if it is aligned well. The ragnarok also is quite capable of matching speed with your LRF, so if you built early LRF firepower you had better stay away from it(this is disasterous when your opponent gets a super feed to ragnarok titan). While I think that building a pure frigate spam fleet should have a strong counter, Lvl 1-2 Titans should also be killable by a 60 LRF fleet. Then, after this window, the titans firepower and durability should scale so that it becomes evenly matched with a larger LRF fleet, say 80-100. In the later levels the titan could face massive amounts of lrf and end up the victor.

Also, reducing the speed of the titan so that all frigates can escape it would be nice, it has a long range. This would also serve to balance its other very strong short range abilities.

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I'm all about fire-piower against defense so its more likely I'm a Rebel Tec. I already know the advent have a new disable/interrupt ability button against furious defense-so micro is easy there. Has ion-bolt been modified to be able to target Titans?

If detonate anti-matter also targets titans then that's bad news for furious defense if its ant-matter dependent.

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sareth01

Join Date 08/2008

+50

good post riddleking, +1

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yea the problem right now is that titans are immune to anything but movment impairing abbilities and passive regen blocking stuff(afaik), meaning they can spam their abbilities undisturbed most of the time. giving people the chance to destroy their antimatter is a big step towards making them alot more beatable without really making them weaker on paper.

interestingly this makes KOLs good against titans (that are running away) as their railgun skill gives you more time to bring one down. just one point in it works best for this, more points dont improve duration, cooldown or effect and only make it a bigger drain on antimatter.

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So make it so you can fight a titan smarter, not harder. I like it. Sounds like it could still be balanced. Just means you can't run your titan solo against a smart opponent or it could easily be caught with its pants down.

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The disadvantage to the Ragnarok is that is AoE abilities are very narrow directly in front of the ship.. So usually when I engage it with a standard fleet, I break my ships up into small groups of 5. His abilities cool too slowly to destroy more than a few groups till he has to withdrawal. Plus if you really want to ignore the Ragnarok, just drive to the side. It can't turn fast enough to catch the slowest ship.

This tactic will probably be the most effective with the advent star fish. Just run rings around the it and ignore its specials they spent all their points upgrading. Add in some guardians to shield with and the advent might be able to severely wound the Ragnarok with only devastating loses instead of total.

Something the Ankylon wont have to worry about. Its a beast no matter which direction its turned in and its special does a lot more damage than the scatter does. Plus the Ankylon's shield boost to the fleet makes the specials of the Ragnarok more of an eye candy than any real damage. You repair ships will have no probs keeping up the the meager damage at almost 45% resist on top of the 30% they get normally from research.

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