Impressions from a new player

Welcome!

My first question is if you have played a true 4X game before?

You see Sins is a 4X game at heart, it is just in a continuous time mode, what most call RTS. Just to clarify 4X stand for Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate and this is what you do in Sins in that order. It plays much more like a standard turnbased 4X than a general RTS game. Yeah you can rush and do all usual RTS things if you like, it's just harder and not as effective. I'm telling you this so that you'll not try to play it as most RTS games.

I remember the same thing as you with my first combat. Try it again and do it like this: Build a capital ship factory and a capital ship, the first is free. Build a capital ship that can colonise. Build two scouts and set them on auto exploring by right clicking the icon for that on their command bar. Clear some asteroids with your cap (Short for Capital ship.), colonise and build them up. Return to your home planet with your cap, build all the frigates you can and create a fleet with them and your capital ship. Set your fleet so that all your ships jump at the same time and go attack a planet.

Now is where you can make the combat go faster. Instead of just letting them fight by themselves give them orders. A common tactic in the start is to click your fleet, have all ships attack siege frigates, colonise the planet when they're dead and then mop up.

For a more effective combat strategy target the neutral enemy ships in this order: LRM Frigates, Light Frigates, Siege Frigates, heavy Cruisers and Flak Frigates. Then go and colonise the planet.

It depends on the planet. If it doesn't have Heavy Cruisers kill the Siege frigates, colonise and then mop up in the order I wrote. Otherwise kill them all first. Well you can leave the Flak frigates for after you've colonised, they don't do much damage to your ships, they're just hard to kill.

Oh and I assume you know to build your resource mines, planet population and that stuff.

Edit: I forgot one thing. This being a 4X it's very slow in the beginning, much more than in standard RTS games. Though it will speed up as your resources start to get up to speed to the point where it's actually as fast as standard RTS or faster because you have much more to manage here than in them.

You need to stop looking at the game as another CnC, DoW or even Homeworld, because its nothing like those games. Sins is a grand strategy game first and foremost. This is why you need to be zoomed out most of the times, this is why the battles are slower than in the classic Dune 2 clones. Granted, playing with 2D icons takes away bit of the charm, but hey, instead of fighting some random battle you actually build empires and bomb enemy homeworlds from orbit to stone-age. This is the very definition of epicness.

When it comes to fun, with Sins it was never about combat. In classic RTS games you just try to endure boring opening  build-up phase to get your armies going, because the combat is the shit, the main source of the fun. With Sins, i always felt its about the combination of things you need to manage constantly... colonize worlds, build structures in orbits, research new techs, build ships, setting up defences, dealing with pirates, dealing with diplomacy, dealing with black market, fight battles...and ofc DECIDE, whether you are going to take care of this or that first.  Its so much more deep than other RTS games (not necessarily better though, that is a thing of personal taste), you have basically no time to be bored   . 

You have a point though with the tutorials, IMHO they are lacking. Not only formally, but content-wise as well.  I did recently the diplomatic one myself and then during the actual game found out, i still did not know certain things.

Heh Timmaigh. Sounds like you fall in the same trap as me sometimes.

-Hm. I'm low on Crystal income and have some spare so I'll invest in a better tech there. While I'm at it I'll do some metal too. Could use some more credits so more population tech it is!

-Hum de doo now the resources and credits are rolling! Though I could use some more. One more economy tech cant hurt.

-Eh. Hard to find room for military labs. Some will do. I'll research some ship design while I'm building a OMG Awesome economy.

-OMG Where did the giant enemy armada come from!

Sins is awesome for online multiplayer PvP.  In case you're wondering, your average 4v4 or 5v5 game only lasts 1.5 hours.

I think you should ignore Rebellion for now because it is a raw, unfinished Beta, and instead focus on learning to play the Diplomacy expansion.  You need to learn how the game works a bit before you judge it.  You might also consider watching some replays of games that have pro players to see how they do it and study what they do.  You can find links to three replays at this thread:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/418067

You need to download the .record files and put them in your "Record-MultiPlayer" folder.  You can find that folder in your Sins Application Data folder.  More information about finding that Application Data folder is available in the 2nd post of this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/sins5

Once you have the replay files in the right place, load up the Diplomacy expansion and then go to <single player> <watch game> to select it from the Record-Multiplayer list.

If you are a fan of "modern RTSs" (the ones advertizing five minute rushes while the TV commercials are running) you won't have much fun with Sins. In the aspect of empire-building and diplomacy Sins is a lot closer to the Anno series or Civilisation than to C&C or Starcraft. Having grown up with RA and Total Annihilation I had to adjust some at first, but found this kind of gamestyle to be lots of fun aswell (I've also become a big Anno fan around the same time I discovered Sins. Coincidence? :p).

Btw, while the setup-phase in Sins is a lot slower than in smaller scale RTSs the mid and lategame can still be quite frantic and demanding, depending on your opponent. Most important is the ablility to distribute attention and resources over multiple "battlefields" (or gravitywells) effectively, which is quite challenging and enjoyable. The slower earlygame also gives players some time to research, and since every player likes to put the focus in different techs you end up with very different scenarios when finally facing them, which I like a lot.

(And ending games quickly is possible in Sins, too. Rushing for the enemy homeworld is fully possible in smaller games, you don't neccesarily have to take over all planets around you before you strike. But just like in other RTS games it is quite risky, you might end up sacrificing your fleet and most of your resources leaving your broke and defenseless).

Yes the tutorials stink. A proper connected tutorial would be great. Maybe tell part of the story around the factions in it. One day in some remote Trader space sector the first Vasari ships appear. TEC forces investigate, get attacked, retreat, eco up, build defenses. Then the Advent send over their culture, TECs need to set up a broadcast center. Some fighting, first offense then defense, everyone sends an envoy and the player gets to form a ceasefire. Yay, most features explained in one go and no silly one-planet-sandbox-level and a popup telling you "build structure here".

Once you get used to the camera its great, zooming out to issue orders then zooming it to watch the action or give tactical orders is great. But it does handle differently from most cameras, just need to give it some time to grow on you.

I disagree, the combat gets pretty good with other people. If you don't want to get to into the micromanagement of your units the Sins AI is good enough to do the job. But if you're playing competitively its a far bigger factor, you really need to move your units around and manually control your best capitalship abilities yourself. Then the challenge becomes how do you do that while still investing in your economy and further building your military. Unlike most games in Sins its actually possible to do that all at once.

Am I the only Sins fan here that started his gaming career with turnbased strategy games? And see the connection it have with grand oldies like Master of Orion and more recent Space Empires? Because I think that it's there Sins have it's roots and if you want to get into it as a new player that is a good starting point. If you have played them or something similar that is. So IMHO as strange as it sounds I think referring to TBS (Turn based Strategy games.) is the most accurate way to describe Sins.

End rant.

Its a game that is not really for everyone, its for those who like to make up thier own stories, or maybe they just like huge fleets blasting eachother apart. But it is a 4x game and unlike the other rts games you mentioned its more about building an empire then just simply blowing up all your oppents.

Yeah, I suppose i wanted to say, its not ONLY about combat, did not mean to imply the combat is worthless or something. My bad. 

Sorry for 2 successive posts, but i do not see multiquote.

I actually i think the majority of Sins players on these boards, the half at minimum, are primarily fans of turn-based, 4X games. When i see those threads about Sword of the Stars, Armada 2526, Distant Stars (or was it Suns?), Dominions 3 etc... its me as out and out RTS player, who feels minority. The only 4X games i ever played were:

Pax Imperia 2: Eminent Domain - because it was real-time

Ascendancy - because it had brilliant soundtrack, which gave the game unique, memorable character. Recently i bought it for my iPhone. LOL. 

I also came from a TBS background:

• Alpha Centauri (SMAC/X)
• Civilization 3/4/5 (All expansions)
• Total War (Shogun I & II, Rome + BI, Medieval II + Kingdoms, Empire)
• Galactic Civiliztions II (All expansions)

I really don't think Sins is comparable to any of these games, and yet, despite being a very heavy TBS player, I absolutely love Sins and it is the only true RTS game that I enjoy...

So while I don't think you can call Sins a TBS, I have to say there is something strangely peculiar with Sins that makes it very appealing to someone with a TBS background....

Then it's me overreacting because I have a hard time finding TB 4X fans outside specific forums and didn't think that they had found their way to a RTS games forum though it's not that far fetched now that I think about it.

Multiquote is easy. Click quote on a post, copy the quoted contents to notepad, go back, click quote on the second post, copy paste from notepad in the new quote post and there you go.

I dare say it's because it's not about frantically clicking units, abilities and maxing your build order so you can get out units faster that your opponent.

Sins is a 4X in continuous time and the focus with it is 4X not time. Which I think is the key. It's not fast until you start throwing around multiple fleets and by that time you're mostly more or less set with researches and economy building. Also your fleets can manage tolerable on their own so you can toss a fleet at an enemy and then concentrate on something else for a while without getting a catastrophe.

Have you tried the Kohan games from Timegate Studios? They are very different from Sins but I've found they are similar with Sins by the fact that they attract TBS players even though they are in continuous time. If you do try them get Kohan: Ahrimans Gift. That is probably the game I've played the most ever. It's a masterpiece.

Which is odd because I play Advent and I end up clicking all over the place and spamming hotkeys for abilities so much when I'm in combat that I completely forget I have an empire to run.

I really need to work on that.

Well that's Advent. They live and die by buffs and abilities.

Been there done that and I got stressed out and lost the Fun. So Now I just use autocast. What I lose in battle management I usually get back in managing my empire. But you already know that I recon.

Edit: Strange. Why did that quote fail? Bug report!

@OP: I also have more of an RTS (also CoH, DowII,etc) than a 4X background and I love Sins/Rebellion. I think it's because I don't want or expect it to play like those RTSs - if anything, it is more akin to Supreme Commander from the RTS world. Yes, you are usually zoomed out but once you are more familiar with the game and apm increases and you need to think less about what to do, then you'll find time to zoom in and appreciate the details more. I love the right click camera control and the zoom level in the game. It is obviously much more of a macro game than the ones you came from but there are micro nuances to learn as well. If you're looking for a replacement for those games along the same lines, this isn't it, but if you're looking for more of a departure with those games as a jumping off point, stick with it and you'll start to get it more I bet.

Awesome responses folks. I am very impressed with the community. You guys are a class act, thanks.

I actually come from Alpha Centauri, Ascendancy, MOO, MOO2 and 3 and am very familiar with the 4x game type. Granted, I haven't played one in quite some time and going into Sins thinking it was an RTS like Homeworld I had missed expectations.

I now have recalibrated and am going into Trinity and giving things a whirl.

So many good suggestions here I want to thank all of you for them. think you've earned another fellow player to the ranks.

give me some time to learn as it appears there's a fairly steep curve to ascend.

Cheers

Chris

As a start, i do play a lot of RTS, from C&C, Starcraft to Supreme Commander and Total Annihilation, so the original Sins turns out to be a little bit slow paced for me. Still do not let the slow paced gameplay stop you from playing as the mid and late game of this game is amazing with the large fleet battles and bombing planets to stone age. Sins has always been the only 4X RTS that i come back to every once in a while.

If you have played Sup Com, the camera should just feel right at home for you. The zoomed out view is mainly for a more tactical and complete view of the battlefield, while the zoom in view is for the eye candies and micro your units.

I would suggest you to pick a race, then, put the AI on Easy and read through the research trees. Try to get a rough idea of the tech the race you have before you dive into a proper game. Each race in Sins has different strengths and weakness, with the difference becomes more apparent with time. After that, i would suggest you to try some of the tech while you learn the ropes of the game. Maybe military tech first, then, culture and so on.

I am mainly a TEC player, so i would suggest you to get Trade Centers as soon as possible, they will make you swimming in credits if done right.

Yes the learning curve is very steep but it is also short, a few days of gameplay should get you comfortable with all the basics. I would suggest that you learn the game from the Tek perspective due to their early strong economy and also because they are human and I feel the most intuitive, then Vasari and finally the Advent due their weak early game compared to the other two even though you may possibly end up enjoying the Advent the most.