Get rid of super weapons... completely » Forum Post by Luieburger

tl;dr

Not serious. I'm trolling.

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There is hope yet. Yarlen stated that in the next patch (or maybe a later one?) that there will be a limit to super weapons. Currently, the planned cap is two, but Yarlen did say that he will try to convince his coworkers to increase it to four super weapons per player.

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Hmm... then wth is the point of the TEC loyalists.

I thought they were suppose to bottleneck and fire superweapons behind their double starbases.

Also superweapons are lackluster at best. They really don't do much of anything since they all have effective counters. The Advent is bad to say the least. The TEC's novalith can be countered by aux gov starbases or other races equivalent. The only one that actually does something worth while is the Vasari allowing you to bypass all defenses and jump anywhere in the map.

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In fairness, "then building super weapons in the back that wipe your enemies out." should read "then building Novaliths in the back that wipe your enemies out." The other two super weapons definitely do not work that way. I actually rather like how the other two perform; they require joint operation with a fleet to realize their true potential.

That said, the deliverance engine DOES seems to need a bit of tweaking, but I like what they're going for. The only issue here is the Novalith.

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

The Novalith really doesn't do that much. It stops you from building on a planet and killing it's tax income in the worst case scenario. Planetary shields and starbases mitigate this a lot anyways, so it doesn't really matter. People just need to learn their counters...

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Then you will like my mod, I turned the things into Inner planetary defense platforms. Ion Cannons. works great too. I hate the things like they are which Is why I modded them.

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Quoting Rovert10,

reply 3

Hmm... then wth is the point of the TEC loyalists.

I thought they were suppose to bottleneck and fire superweapons behind their double starbases.

Also superweapons are lackluster at best. They really don't do much of anything since they all have effective counters. The Advent is bad to say the least. The TEC's novalith can be countered by aux gov starbases or other races equivalent. The only one that actually does something worth while is the Vasari allowing you to bypass all defenses and jump anywhere in the map.

They could add a research that let them raise the number of super weapons they could get just like they can get 2 starbases

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The deliverance engine isn't of much use to me unless I'm jumping in to attack the planet with my fleet. I tend to lose track of it after a while. In one massive game I played, the other 3 Advent factions kept firing away at my planets with their own superweapons. The effect was nill since I had already maxed out culture techs and had starbases protecting most planets. The Novalith on the other hand will wipe your planet clean if you haven't maxed out the population cap. I had to send in colony shops to repopulate those planets. I feared more the TEC superweapon than that of Advent.

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Quoting sporemaster,

reply 7

Quoting Rovert10, reply 3Hmm... then wth is the point of the TEC loyalists.

I thought they were suppose to bottleneck and fire superweapons behind their double starbases.

Also superweapons are lackluster at best. They really don't do much of anything since they all have effective counters. The Advent is bad to say the least. The TEC's novalith can be countered by aux gov starbases or other races equivalent. The only one that actually does something worth while is the Vasari allowing you to bypass all defenses and jump anywhere in the map.

They could add a research that let them raise the number of super weapons they could get just like they can get 2 starbases

Is there really a need for such a thing? I think people are way too worked up about it. Sure the AI spams them out but if it's a small map you can rush them out. If it's a large map (probably multistar) then why the hell is this such a problem that they use super weapons? Seems fitting to be using them in such large quantities when you have the need to take out multiple targets. I assume that you can control a system and build an eco large enough to sustain starbases for important planets at least.

If anything modify the AI. I don't like my superweapons to be limited.

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Why not add a button to the options menu to enable or disable superweapons like you can with pirates?

+2

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I have to ask the question, just what qualifies a "Super Weapon"? Is it simply because the entity is a "Cannon"?

Maybe some people don't like that someone builds tons of hangars or nothing but turrets at lane points... There gonna be a hardcap of 5 hangars and 10 turrets too? What about assholes who spam out ships; a limit of 30 at a time for a particular ship?

Let the limit be something moddable.

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WTF if u allow your enemy to get noviaths its ur fault! and ur the one turteling... as soon as you get the warning that one of ur enemies is getting to built a super weapon that is your Q to attack, not stay back and relax while spending money on fancy research! getting rid of super weapons is the worst idea yet! super weapons add more depth in the story and more strategy. if id have it my way the noviaths would destroy a planet into an asteroid field so that people learn how to use them wisely and not spam them...

so stop complaining and attack ur enemy and dont turtle!

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Quoting jonko2,

reply 10

Why not add a button to the options menu to enable or disable superweapons like you can with pirates?

SOASE isn't about to put in options. A ton of options have been requested since 2008 and it either can't be done or StarClad can't be arsed to do it.

No Deathmatch, no min/max tech, no campaign, no linked maps, no turret movement, no preventing certain ships/structures, etc...

SOASE: Such Options Aren't So Easy

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Quoting axxo2,

reply 12

WTF if u allow your enemy to get noviaths its ur fault! and ur the one turteling... as soon as you get the warning that one of ur enemies is getting to built a super weapon that is your Q to attack, not stay back and relax while spending money on fancy research! getting rid of super weapons is the worst idea yet! super weapons add more depth in the story and more strategy. if id have it my way the noviaths would destroy a planet into an asteroid field so that people learn how to use them wisely and not spam them...

so stop complaining and attack ur enemy and dont turtle!

Yeah, okay. I'll just let my opponent choose at what time my fleet will try to plow through his double Starbase'd choke-points to get to the most remote planet in his empire. I don't see how that could possibly be a bad idea.

Great strategic advice.

In all seriousness, if they aren't going to nerf the Novalith they should at LEAST buff the other super-weapons to be just as abusive.

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Quoting reticently,

reply 14

Yeah, okay. I'll just let my opponent choose at what time my fleet will try to plow through his double Starbase'd choke-points to get to the most remote planet in his empire. I don't see how that could possibly be a bad idea.

Great strategic advice.

In all seriousness, if they aren't going to nerf the Novalith they should at LEAST buff the other super-weapons to be just as abusive.

if u play against human (muliplayer- super weapons rarely happen unless ppl are noobs) if u play against ai he most likely has a super weapon at his home world... (the first one atleast) use your brain and get there... u sound like u might like the vasari... their super weapon enables them to junp to any planet with a phase node stabilizer! so go get em! wait for the vasari to be out before rash requests

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Quoting reticently,

reply 14

Quoting axxo2, reply 12WTF if u allow your enemy to get noviaths its ur fault! and ur the one turteling... as soon as you get the warning that one of ur enemies is getting to built a super weapon that is your Q to attack, not stay back and relax while spending money on fancy research! getting rid of super weapons is the worst idea yet! super weapons add more depth in the story and more strategy. if id have it my way the noviaths would destroy a planet into an asteroid field so that people learn how to use them wisely and not spam them...

so stop complaining and attack ur enemy and dont turtle!

Yeah, okay. I'll just let my opponent choose at what time my fleet will try to plow through his double Starbase'd choke-points to get to the most remote planet in his empire. I don't see how that could possibly be a bad idea.

Great strategic advice.

In all seriousness, if they aren't going to nerf the Novalith they should at LEAST buff the other super-weapons to be just as abusive.

You do realize that bomber spam or orgovs kill any amount of starbases with relative ease. And if the AI was actually smart enough to put a Phase jump inhibitor. If not then just go around it and bypass the defense.

In multiplayer starbases are kinda worthless unless you have a really good chokepoint.

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Not one of the superweapons can kill the enemy by itself. All that superweapons can do is softening the enemy up so you have an easier time attacking. The only superweapon that could possibly wint he game on it's own is the nova, and that only if you manage to kill the enemy Capital planet before the opponent gets aux gov.

Superweapons are actually one of the more tactical assets in the game, if used right (read as: by a human and not some dumb AI that has no idea what it should do with them).

Also, sitting back in and watching your superweapons "do the work for you" (which they don't, as I stated before) usually results in you getting your ass handed by the counterttacking enemy.

If people dislike superweapons I have nothign about an optional limitation, but just taking them out because some people cannot cope with them? Don't see a valid reason for that.

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Quoting axxo2,

reply 15

if u play against human (muliplayer- super weapons rarely happen unless ppl are noobs) if u play against ai he most likely has a super weapon at his home world... (the first one atleast) use your brain and get there... u sound like u might like the vasari... their super weapon enables them to junp to any planet with a phase node stabilizer! so go get em! wait for the vasari to be out before rash requests

Just because most multiplayer matches don't feature super-weapons isn't a good reason to leave them unbalanced. Some multiplayer matches do feature them. I have one friend in particular I often play Sins with and it isn't unusual for us to play on a huge map and take multiple game sessions over the course of a month to finish it. All the time in the world to get super-weapons. Sins should try to be balanced for those types of games too.

I'm not concerned with the AI having Novaliths; ultimately the AI is too dumb to use them well.

Also- yes, I'm familiar with the Vasari. I mostly play Advent though. For what its worth, your Vasari advice requires them to get their super-weapon up first, which is possible but not usually probable, and still requires them to sacrifice some amount of fleet on what may well be a trap. In other words, the Novalith player is still choosing where and when the fighting happens, which is strongly to their advantage.

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Quoting Rovert10,

reply 16

You do realize that bomber spam or orgovs kill any amount of starbases with relative ease. And if the AI was actually smart enough to put a Phase jump inhibitor. If not then just go around it and bypass the defense.

In multiplayer starbases are kinda worthless unless you have a really good chokepoint.

I do realize that and actually completely agree. In fact those are some of the things that have kept Sins playable. Starbases are really only choke points when they have fleet support. The Tec player still has a fleet though, and is still picking when and where the combats happen, which is very much to their favor.

I'm not claiming Novaliths create impossible situation for their opponents, just claiming that the idea of rushing down Novalith construction is no panacea. Also that the disparity between super-weapons is obvious and should be addressed in one way or another. Nobody ever thinks to try to rush down on a Deliverance Engine while it is being built.

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Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,

reply 5

People just need to learn their counters...

I really hate when people pretend a starbase is a counter... Lets do some math.

Novalith price, before reductions:
8000 credits, 600 metal, 500 crystal.

Argonev (with auxillary government) price, before reductions:
4800 credits, 725 metal, 525 crystal.

That's 60% of the credits, and over 100% the amount of resources PER PLANET to counter a Novalith. Given that you'll have multiple planets to defend, sometimes double digits, anyone who thinks starbases are a viable counter to novaliths deserves to lose. Starbases are as much of a counter to Novaliths as wearing full plate armor is a counter to sunburn. I mean, I GUESS it'd keep you nice and pale, but really?

Shield generators are nice, but as they're restricted to a third the factions, really don't count. Harden cities seems a bit... overrated. Do the Vasari even have an answer?

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Quoting XubXub,

reply 20

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5 People just need to learn their counters...

I really hate when people pretend a starbase is a counter... Lets do some math.

Novalith price, before reductions:
8000 credits, 600 metal, 500 crystal.

Argonev (with auxillary government) price, before reductions:
4800 credits, 725 metal, 525 crystal.

That's 60% of the credits, and over 100% the amount of resources PER PLANET to counter a Novalith. Given that you'll have multiple planets to defend, sometimes double digits, anyone who thinks starbases are a viable counter to novaliths deserves to lose. Starbases are as much of a counter to Novaliths as wearing full plate armor is a counter to sunburn. I mean, I GUESS it'd keep you nice and pale, but really?

Shield generates are nice, but as they're restricted to a third the factions, really don't count. Harden cities seems a bit... overrated. Do the Vasari even have an answer?

Well by that logic it's your fault for allowing anybody including the AI to build that many novaliths in the first place so thus you deserve to lose or at least battered consistently.

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Quoting Rovert10,

reply 21

Well by that logic it's your fault for allowing anybody including the AI to build that many novaliths in the first place so thus you deserve to lose or at least battered consistently.

Don't jump to conclusions. I never said I had trouble with Novaliths, just that they're out of line in strength with the other superweapons, and that starbases aren't a valid counter. If we want to put words in each others mouths, and argue those words instead, we'll be here all day.

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I really don't see a problem with the way the superweapons work now.... In fact, I really like how they are now. Limiting how many can be built just doesn't seem like an answer. It hurts the TEC Loyalists a LOT! If you learn to counter them, then they aren't a problem. Maybe changes could be made to the AI that allows them to better counter them. A human player will focus on counters as a preventative or reactionary measure. The AI should too... That sloves the problem of the Novalith wiping our all the AI players. The pirates might be given some sort of counter to these weapons too. If nothing else maybe they could do counter-attacks on the planets that shots come from??? Just a rough idea.... Maybe they could build up to fielding a super weapon of thier own??? Something unlike what the playable factions use. Maybe a super defense that somehow absorbs the energy used by super weapon shots and converts it to something. Maybe a super weapon that shorts out other super weapons? That could be interesting.....

At any rate, I really, really don't like the idea of nerfing how the super weapons work now. Even a limitation of how many can be built will hurt the game. Changing how AI react is a good thing.... As I have posted elsewhere, a bump in the cooldown timers is ok too. Maybe even a bump in the cost of the things. Devs, just please don't change how they work or how many you can have.

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I suspect that the reason this has become an issue all of the sudden (and wasn't before the release of the Rebellion Beta) is that the TEC Loyalists can build novaliths with only 6 military labs and only one piece of research. On top of that, the second piece of research allows them to be spammed out.

This problem will go away if the novalith research is returned to its proper place behind missile improvement research. At that point they could keep the research that decreases their cost and tactical slots.

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Quoting reticently,

reply 18

I'm not concerned with the AI having Novaliths; ultimately the AI is too dumb to use them well.

I'm not concerned about the AI having superweapons, but I am concerned about the AI not having other things it needs because it's too busy building useless structures.

Quoting dfalken,

reply 23

Even a limitation of how many can be built will hurt the game.

Isn't a unit cap kind of a last resort, balance-wise? If the devs think players will spam superweapons then why not just have them drain resources like increasing fleet size does? It serves the same purpose as a cap and adds more potential for strategic depth. Then just cap the AI at whatever they think the optimum number is.

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