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TEC Really Need Something to Protect Themselves From Insane Bombers

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TEC Really Need Something to Protect Themselves From Insane Bombers

from Sins Forums

Just a boring game vs the AI. Because the fear of VRT, I decided to go for the bombers at my best.

So that's what finally I have, before I start to invade a TEC loyalist AI:

  • 100 carriers, with 135 bomber squadrons;
  • cap fleets with 35 or 37 bomber squadrons;
  • Scramble Bombers. I just forgot how many squadrons at the same time, but I had 6 Skirantra.
  • cloned carriers created by Duplicate Force. I chose the fighter : bomber as 1:1.

I forgot the exact number. So let's say I had 180 squadrons of bombers at that time. The AI had about 80 squadrons of both fighters and bombers in total.

Then I just selected all the bombers, and gave them attack orders, first one was Lv10 Kol, then second one was Lv7 Kol, then the other caps, then the Ankylon. No further micro-management for the bombers. (I'm not a skilled player and not good at microing.)

So the Lv10 Kol was killed in seconds. My bombers are damaged, but still acceptable. Then I killed the Lv7 Kol again without heavy loss. All the things left was just slaughter.

Normally I play TEC, and rarely Vasari. That's the first time I go for more than 20 carriers, and now I understand why people always say the Flak Burst is not so useful as it looks. Even it was AI that allowed me to build carriers insanely, and maybe not possible in MP games, but it still shows how helpless Flak Burst is. It really hurts, but it can't prevent the first wave of strike. Jam Weapons and Telekinetic Push can delay even such an insane attack a little while, to make fighters a chance to kill some before the inevitable attack.

Well, maybe it's just the fear of a TEC player.

43,814 views 57 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 47
Flak Turrets on Caps: way too many. As I've discovered in modding, the very act of converting the autocannons of the Kol from capitalship damage to antilight damage and allowing them to target SC already slays them quite quickly. If you had that many flak turrets on everything, capitals would pummel all SC that came in range. If this is even a path to be taken, I'd suggest instead 2 on battleships, 1 on battlecruisers, and 0 on carriers. Reason being is that what you're suggesting would make flak frigates obsolete because capitals would fill their role better plus having all sorts of support abilities.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

Plan on working this into Distant Stars and that is close to the ratio I calculated. I give Carriers at 1/2. And this will be at lvl 10. Plus in Distant Stars the bombers are much stronger. :P

Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 47
Honestly though, perhaps the simplest solution to all of this is just to nerf the range of bombers. Change the range from 2700 to 1700. Suddenly, you have a lot more play as far as what gets killed. Now that I think about it, 1700 might be far too little. Maybe 2300 would be better.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

Range is 2400...

I'll advocate the flak burst I like the most...

Periodic AoE with range 4000 or so...debuff of -25% accuracy or so for only targets in range (if they move out of range, debuff stops)...I have DPS numbers in mind but they are for a mod where SC have very different HP so those aren't going to be helpful for vanilla sins...something like maybe 10-15 DPS would be appropriate...key difference between levels would be range and duration to cooldown ratio...

This is a completely restructured ability that is comparable to TK push in that it does a fair amount of damage while also providing some sort of cover....I won't claim this structure is perfect but I've played with this version of flak burst for a quite a while and been happy with it...

I've seen a variety of numbers thrown around here for accuracy debuffs and I have a few comments:

  • Context is everything...what is the duration of the debuff?  What is the stacking limit?  Do targets keep the debuff even if they move out of range? 
  • Even for a stacking debuff (where any given SC is likely to have at most 3 flak bursts on it), a small number like 5% is fairly useless...consider other abilities like vertigo or other things that reduce incoming damage (such as a cruiser ability that reduces damage by 33%)...a 5% debuff, even if stacked 3 times, just isn't going to be doing a whole lot...

 

A ~15% reduction in incoming damage coming only from some of the SC for a very short period of time just isn't very tantalizing...if you aren't changing flak burst in any other way (ie it does the same amount of damage and is instant action) then small values I suppose are fine (since the ability is still pretty good), but if you restructure the ability then you are gonna need a decent debuff value...

Purely from a competitive gameplay stand point, the biggest issue with flak burst is not its power, but its utility...the ability is AM intensive and has limited use at low levels (compared to TK push which is useful at all levels)...the absolute simplest change would be a AM cost decrease, with maybe costs of 85/90/95/100 instead of just 100 for all levels...I like having the accuracy debuff, but that's not a change likely to be implemented by the devs...an AM cost decrease is something the devs may actually consider....

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Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 52
I like having the accuracy debuff, but that's not a change likely to be implemented by the devs...an AM cost decrease is something the devs may actually consider....
End of Seleuceia's quote

Why I INDEED agree all three point of you... Yes, the balancing is complicate and some AM decrease seems the most realistic solution. At least it makes Lv4 Kols a bit more useful.

And I just have an idea - though obviously late now - why not let all the Titans have one anti-SC AOE skill each? That can become another scissor-rock-cloth game: massed SC can take out frigate fleets, and massed frigate lead by Capital ships (should) take out the Titan.

Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top

I have been playing with the under-dogs: advent loyalist for some time and i can truly say there is a-alot of trolling going on here.

For starters bombers is not the problem-corvettes are because when you complained about bombers then the devs decided to give us an even more buff bomber that kills bombers-and everything else. Its no secret corvette counters bomber massing and escapes flak if there not in a tight formation. 

 

That said- bomber massing is not a problem in a fleet composed for different roles-- flak and corvettes. Where the other races have low flak dps at 75%, advent flak is dangerous against bombers at a maximum 29dps that is achievable by tier 4. 

Further more loyalist are more likely to be less affected with bombers due to disable targeting,vertigo, shield projection, suppression aura, mitigation in culture,TK and stealing anti-matter from carrier cruisers. These are all damage reductions so they don't receive the full wave of attacks . With rebellion bombers are not the issue. The issue is surviving corvette spamming while working towards building light frigates, lrm to carrier and hc if not a titan. 

Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 54
i can truly say there is a-alot of trolling going on here.
End of RiddleKing's quote

Well first, I should admit my post is somewhat trolling. And second, I don't have much chance to play online, just due to the bullshit speed of China Telecom. And third, considering the time zone, it's a tragedy for me.

And turn to my post, I think you misunderstand me more or less:

  • I'm talking about TEC. I really know Advent and Vasari have good anti-SC skills.
  • I'm talking about the first wave of bomber strike. It can kill high level capital ships easily, then the carriers can run back to friendly grav well before the enemy fleet can catch them.
  • I'm not criticizing the existing fighter-bomber-flak game. I only concerns the first strike.
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top

You need to open with a defensive fleet then an offensive one. Meaning your opening with flak and corvettes then titan or light frigates, long range frigates, carriers and heavies. You cant build enough bomber squads to survive a corvette rush in the early game. 

The bomber situation is mitigated by corvettes and units like carrier cruisers are late game builds or units you build when you opt not to build a titan. How fast you roll out carriers depends on your economy because if you kid yourself into building only a handful then you suffer the wrath of the titans. 

 

Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 56
You need to open with a defensive fleet then an offensive one.
End of RiddleKing's quote

The scenario I described in OP was actually a late game. After killing a Lv10 Eradica, I lost many frigates, and according to the map, the next AI was Vasari, so I started to mass out carriers. The reason to wiping out a TEC loyalist fleet, was just because they happened to be there in my way.

I'm not sure the MP scenario, but I think it shall be possible to see 150+ bombers at the first strike, if there are at least 2 players in the same grav well. So what I described is still possible for TEC players in MP, though in that scenario they can also count on the support of Kortul / Halcyon.

But I still want something for TEC to deal with the first strike.