Sareth, talking in a totally condescending way is not helping people stay on topic, please just let it go. Now, back on topic? Please?

7 Deadly Sins added moving starbases to all factions as part of defensive balance to counter our expanded gravity wells.  Starbases are definitely much harder to take down since bomber spam can't run away.

Give Titans and Starbases their own squadron type with 9 strikecraft. 

Sparda, they can run... into turrets.

Precisely

Actually I do address this issue.  Its quite easy to balance them, you could decrease their effective range, especially for red button, and its been stated a few times in this thread by me and others.  What would lowering the range of red button do? it would make it less able to wipe out a fleet.  Yet giving the TEC a moving starbase would increase the defensive capability of the TEC, especially that of the TEC loyals.  Meteor is less of a threat then most people think, it might need a slight nerf but overall it won't be overpowered.  What most people don't realize is that the orkulus starbase does more damage then meteor because it can  move quickly to keep up with a fleet and fire out all of its banks.

The advent vs. vasari early game matchup is quite one sided.  The advent don't have a superior early game ECO to the vasari, and the vasari capital ships are super tough and can clear pretty much any gravity well solo, and they can expand faster than any race and put a super strong defensible starbase up the moment they encounter an enemy force on the front lines.

2 lab carriers for advent actually isn't an advantage, because the advent carriers cost a lot more and are harder to get in any number early on.  Considering advent's weak eco, its not really an advantage.  Also, advent fighters/bombers are so easily killed by flak that countering this early, expensive buildup is actually cheaper(especially time wise) then the initial buildup itself.  So, all things considered, it ends up being an early game disadvantage.

Because its effective.  The vasari will have to face a tougher defense and early choke point capturing by advent and TEC as well.  Since choke point capture is CRITICAL to this game, giving the vasari player the one sided advantage in this area gives them almost total control in the long term.  This should be more balanced, and fights will be closer and more memorable then "oh crap he build a starbase I gotta run now because I can't build useful starbases of my own".  Moving starbases are tactically useful, its that simple.  Also, the vasari would still be better because they would be faster to deploy their starbases.  I've always been a friend of the notion that "closer fights are more memorable, engaging, and likely to have someone play the game longer".  If this isn't changed, it will still be a common vasari tactic, with no real counter.

Not really, good vasari players will be one step ahead of you the entire game once they secure that critical chokepoint (you know, the one you can't secure because you don't have a good mobile starbase of your own?).  Vasari early game balance has always been a concern since they had moving orkulus's.  SB rush! HELLO!  It was only the most controversial aspect of entrenchment.  Why? because a vasari starbase just strong arms in a win because its too durable, and builds too fast.

Hmm, this is an experience only bit, if you play online multiplayer and see how they are used, how fast your opponents have them built, you should laugh at this quote.  What i'm suggesting is the least drastic change to the starbases to balance them. A win for game balance, a win for developers and win for players.

If you play single player against fleets of AI's, you should also laugh at this quote because you can mow down huge AI fleets with just a few subverters, one upgraded orkulus, and 10 overseers...

Titans counter each other, and the same one sided fleet still wins because the orkulus can move.  A moving orkulus allows it ACTIVELY defend 100% of its gravity well.  Compared to the other starbases, who PASSIVELY cover about 1/4 of their gravity well, the orkulus is 4x+ more effective at what its designed to do.  Active meaning the ability to chase away an enemy fleet (or at least get them to retreat from the starbase in the gravity well), and passive meaning just sitting there as a target.  which one defends better by a large margin? the orkulus.  This margin is too large and has been throwing off game balance for years.

In this game, full powered defensive coverage on a gravity well for one race and no others is hugely unbalanced.  The vasari still would have the best defensive setup to turtle up and get a strong eco with a fleet, it just wouldn't be so one sided.

If the game gets dull, make building attack abilities even better.  After all, the only faction without a strong building attack would be the Vasari Loyals, because the Rebels have the jumping starbase.  The faster it takes to reduce starbases the more offensively oriented the game can be.

Also, a few closing points (even though most of these points have already been stated in this thread...).

With the addition of titans, the vasari are the only race that can build a starbase and engage a titan to act as a defensive countermeasure.  All other races have their starbases unable to even engage a titan and therefore have a serious defensive disadvantage because of this.  its simple, orkulus's can meet the titan with a similar force, and then he who has better fleet support wins the day.  the defender has the advantage.  With the Advent and TEC, the attacker has the advantage.  Moving starbases allow you to have less fleet requirements because you have a better defense.  This allows you to have a better economy then your TEC/Advent opponents who HAVE to have a fleet to attack and defend, because they don't really have an effective ACTIVE defense.

If you still don't know what I'm talking about, please play more multiplayer games.  However, I see you online a bit and i'm quite surprised that you don't think that I know what i'm talking about.  Let me livestream a game on a delay so that  I can vs. you and roll you up into a little sandwich and eat you for breakfast.

Then I could link that game to this thread as an added bonus.

Sounds like some fun to me.

Wait what are you saying? So if SB rush is easy to deal with against Vasari why would SB rushes with Advent or TEC be bad? Playing against you they'd be doomed to your bombers, wouldn't they? No offense intended.

Disclaimer: All Caps sentances are meant to increase the ease of the target reader's (in this case, Ekko) viewing of certain key points because he has created reasonable doubt via his replies that show a lack of reading comprehension.

Na, its more of a personality trait, I have time to help people understand my point of view and to point out the obvious errors in the opposing points of view.  Many multiplayer's who responded to this thread play vasari anyways, so there is an obvious bias...YAWN, I was hoping for a better reply from you but....okay.  Also, using the statement "it can be countered" is pretty lame...its like duh, anything in the game can be countered.  What you should be saying is that it can be reasonably countered, as in countered in actual games vs. actual skilled players.  But then you would be over reaching on your statement and i'd be able to gobble that up reply in two seconds...lol.

Why would vasari multiplayer's be biased against this idea?  Because they know that if this suggestion gets implemented  their easy-lol wins will be harder to come by because they won't have a built in advantage anymore.  

Thanks Sel for pointing out the biggest hole in his position.  If all factions can use this starbase mechanic, then all factions have to be wary of its use.  Right now the game plays like using a football playbook where most teams aren't allowed to use the best play, while a few favored teams get to ram that play down your throat time and time again.  If you nerf the play, then a fun aspect of the game is altogether gone.  I'd rather see that fun aspect expanded... Giving everyone access to that play, with varying degree's of efficacy would be easy to implement and retain the fun factor of using that play.

I'm glad you posted this replay ekko, here's your quote from the other thread:

If you watch my matchup with howthe you notice one thing, that he gets fed consistently twice as many resources as I do.  I do agree that our feeder was totally lame and never fed any of us nearly as enough cash...Howthe was fed about 50k credits, while I was fed 25k...This allowed him to almost instantly rebuild his heavy fleet losses.

So, my early rush on howthe was going fine, then he started building starbases(predictably).  You will notice how quickly and easily he was able to totally thwart my entire assault and defend himself.  If he'd been smart and snuck a starbase to my HW while my fleet was engaged a more than a few jumps away from my homeworld he would have won hands down, but howthe wasn't playing that well, even with the feed.  There would be NOTHING I could have done to stop the loss of my HW if he'd snuck in a starbase at that point.  It comes down to vasari build starbases, and they win.  Its because their starbases can move to threaten fleets.  Its really that simple, and that one sided in most cases.

So, once I gained the fleet advantage on howthe, I should have been able to attack him ya?  But wait, its the orkulus starbase that would eat my destras for lunch...So I have to sit there while he gets feed and his fleet gets built up.  Look at the skill involved, He avoids attack because I just can't attack him because he's built his moving starbase, while I have to endure the fact that my fleet is impotent to his starbases.  Its a stalemate that howthe needs to have almost zero skill to achieve.  Its a warm safety blanket that snuggles all vasari players.   

I could build starbases of my own, but that would be a waste of credits because THEY DON'T MOVE, AND BECAUSE THEY DON'T MOVE THEY AREN'T WORTH THE CREDITS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T THREATEN HOWTHE'S FLEET.  If i'd been building starbases howthe would have rolled through me easily because he was building bombers, and since advent starbases can't move, I can never force his bombers to move except with my fleet, which means I'll be incurring losses in transit to those bombers, Losses that I CANNOT AFFORD.  I should have been able to defend with starbases at that point without a severe gimping of my capability.  After all, I had bought myself a bunch of time, something that is very difficult to do against a skilled opponent, especially against howthe playing as vasari.  There are no mechanics in the game that reward the advent for superior play.  Somehow the whole faction is balanced around the fact that they HAVE to eco up and they HAVE to spend 100% of their credits on themselves to have a good fleet.  Its usually difficult to eco as advent on the front lines, while its easy for TEC and vasari to do so because vasari just need 1 orkulus and 2 phase jump inhibitors to defend their gravity wells.  Why? because the orkulus CAN MOVE TO KILL AN INHIBITED FLEET(this explanation brought to you by your friendly neighborhood carpetbomb).  

Note:If the advent/TEC starbases costed half of what a vasari starbase did that would balance the situation a bit as well.  I'm not stating that my suggestion is the only way(as i've stated many times in this thread), i've been stating that this is the best way to add something fun to the game instead of taking away something old.  

Anyways, Ekko you didn't see in chat after the game where howthe said "wow, I suck".  Its because he knew that despite all the inherent advent vs. vasari matchup advantages he had, and with twice the feed, I held the line.  Sure, I have a blazing moment of glory at the very start of the game, yet no advent player can really hold the line against a vasari player for too long if that player is getting even a little feed, as vasari starbases ensure that even with a small feed advantage the vasari still have a long term advantage.  Its been a consistent aspect of gameplay that has existed since entrenchment, and it exists because vasari starbases can move and the other's cannot.

Also, Ekko you are seeing one of the few players in the game that can really give those good vasari players the run for their money as advent, so thanks for posting the replay.  Even so, a better vasari player would have been on my HW with a starbase early on and I would have been 100% unable to counter it.

So Ekko, we wouldn't want to give everyone this ability to trap fleets like the vasari can, because they have to be the ONLY race capable of it because they deserve this nice warm safety blanket.  I wouldn't mind having a blanky too!!!

The amount you play it has no bearing on your ability to perform within the games limits, once you have learned how to play multiplayer matches.  

Good, you agree with me that the vasari starbases are in need of balancing.  There are more ways to do this then just nerfing the orkulus.  Perhaps it will be done as its the simplest fix, but i'd rather enjoy having more options for all players.

I've clearly demonstrated this, its just you aren't reading/thinking.

You are instead just being taunting, because you want to make it seem that i'm somehow emotionally reacting to people opposing me.

You failed.

No, because nobody is.

Good - so while at least being genuine in your answer, you've invalidated your only objection to other MP players opinions. Which brings us to: why should anyone then listen to your opinion instead of theirs when the number of MP players who agree with your idea still currently rests at 0?

Btw - for people to take you seriously in a balance topic - totally the wrong answer compadre. You have to at least try to pretend to be unbiased or at least try to self-reflect and take your own bias into account when making balance suggestions. Rovert, Howthe?, Sel, myself - none think this is a good idea. Zombie thought it would be "fun" so at least you've got that going for you.

I'm probably the least biased/most neutral as I play almost exclusively Advent and my 2nd choice is TEC.

Yep, if you read I also say his starbases thwart the rush.  The reason is WHY do they do that?  Because they can move.  he does get twice the feed, so yes that helps as well.  The point being is that with feed he can not only recover, but make himself invulnerable to assault for a very long time.  Because his starbase can move.

lol your right about it not being Sel!  So used to his blue/greenish picture I didn't even read the name.

Coronalfire still hasn't gotten a solid reply from you on his point, which makes your position all the weaker.

You shouldn't think that putting words in his mouth is an effective strategy, as he can just say "nay, i didn't think that" and just debase your other position.  Yet i'm sorry for giving you unsolicited advice that could help you look less foolish.  Yet you focusing on the "easy" aspect of the counter means that you really missed the entire point of his post, which was totally throwing some light on the biggest hole in your position.

Thanks for the compliment

I fail to see how that compliment is connected to those previous quotations however, because you do a poor job of communicating your point.

More lack of communication, but its okay because you find it funny.  

Nothing trollish about providing a serious suggestion to the devs about how to add in another synergy aspect to the game.  

Also, we've been over the bit where orkulus starbases are a bit too strong already.  I chock this up as yet another failure in reading comprehension, because I agree with you in my above post on this issue after all...

Not having all starbases mobile created balance issues in this game.  This could be accomplished with small nerfs, yet at the same time, its going to only weaken the fun of players who enjoy using those strategies.  Notice the pattern in rebellion?  Cool things are getting nerfed so that they aren't nearly as viable.  The devs have been using the big nerf bat instead of the subtle nerf rapier.  Its killing the strategy diversity that rebellion was supposed to deliver.

So you want more of this by saying, devs, nerf ! < Your idea

Instead you could have Devs, improve so nerf is not needed! <My idea

Its doable, its just that people need to think outside the box and realize that saying "nerf this!" isn't going to get the desired response from the devs.

Also, you are being very vague, while i'm being quite specific.  It really doesn't do much to lend credibility to your position, and any dev reading this would know that you really don't know what you're talking about because your hiding behind a simple vague defense.

People who say they are unbaised are liars.  Any position that is considered 'unbiased', even in the courtroom with all its protections, is a lie.  Its human nature to be biased.  So I'll not lie to you and tell you what you want to hear, you should instead ask the question "why do I want to hear that he's unbiased?".  You're one of this morons in college who just ate everything your teacher told you yes?  

Self reflection is something any reasonable person should do, and I did plenty of it during my submarine years.  My bias is that I want a game with more paths to victory, and I want a game that is overall more fun.  I've been quite clear on this.  Oh, and i'd like to fix the issue of the advent vasari matchup, still the biggest imbalance in the game.  I prefer to play advent because they are still underemployed in many ways, especially when i play as the loyalists.  I get more out of the win you see, because I overcome the largest obstacles inherent in the game design, allowing for larger reward.  It also keeps my skills sharp so that I don't have to play many games to stay up to speed.

least biased? What does that mean exactly?  Can you describe to me what that is?  What magnitude is your bias and how do you determine that it is the "least"?

More lame responses lacking in brainpower.

No shit sherlock, its the internet, on a videogame forum.  Know the medium in which you communicate.  I'm glad i'm helping you put 2 and 2 together.  Watching you think is like watching slugs have sex, slow and messy.

The key word in this quote is the word "Opinion".  You should learn to understand what that word means, as it would help you in understanding that opinions don't have to be taken as fact, and that everything on these forums is an opinion, that can be supported by facts.  Yet it is still an opinion and yes, it must be treated as such.  Its all in that word bro, do some research.

It would really be great if both of you would just discuss the balance issues instead of doing such while making unnecessary personal attacks against each other.

Sareth, there is very little worth responding to in your replies. I'd noticed how hostile you were to anyone disagreeing with your idea in the thread so far and you didn't disappoint when I disagreed as well. Your replies to many of the valid points people bring up are basically "No, you!" (eg. look at your reply to Sel's points about Vasari frigates and Vasari weaknesses that help explain why they have a stronger/different SB).

I find it amusing that you think your approach and attitude in this thread will help you in moderating some future game forum you are planning. You might want to revisit some of that self-reflection stuff you said you were capable of so you don't come off so asinine and hostile in the future. You're really just shooting yourself in the foot and not accomplishing anything here other than venting your pent up nerd rage. You need to learn that people disagreeing with your ideas are not actually personally attacking you so you don't need to go into hyper-defensive mode. It's something that will hopefully come with maturity.