Starbases need embetterment for late game

from Sins Forums

I think starbases should have some means to have better survivability in late game. They are too much of a sitting duck (except for Vasari), and now that the AI is smart enough to spam Ogrovs and starfishes, it should have means to at least delay the steamroll a bit until you can get a fleet in the gravwell.

Problem 1: all slots in the upgrade/skill panel are occupied.

Proposed solution: Move the trade ports upgrade to a technology which automatically grants it, at levels 6-8. This gives one extra slot for another skill. Each race would get an additional thing in their starbases.

Problem 2: Vasari jumping starbase is OP

Proposed solution: make Vasari jump tech not be automatic, but take up a starbase upgrade slot. The first level could be cheaper, like the first trade port level, and the second more expensive, but reduce jump AM cost and increase SB move/turn/jump speed.

Problem 3: TEC/Advent starbase is helpless against a massive fleet of extreme range doom. Red Button is a tough pill to swallow if you have invested in other upgrades in the starbase. Meteor shower can do awesome damage, but is also range-limited.

Proposed solution TEC: There is no way to make that hulking thing move, that's a given. But you can add an uber-tractor-beam-of-doom SB upgrade. First level would have 1-2 beams and target frigates, second level would add more 1-2 beams and target capital ships too. The beam would have a range higher than Ogrov (perhaps teh whole gravwell), each beam would pull one ship at a time into SB range. Tractor beam would disable ship skills and increase weapon cooldown by 50%. Optionally the tractor beam could just be a tech upgrade without SB slot cost, but then it could be considered too powerful. (maybe not?)

Proposed solution Advent #1: Give the advent SB a teleport skill. First level would have ridiculously high AM requirement and very very long cooldown, further levels reduce AM cost and cooldown. That would enable them to reposition SB in times of need. First level would cause a 'confusion' effect on the original starbase position, second level would also cause a 'confusion' effect on the destination (making it more suitable for an offensive move).

Proposed solution Advent #2: Also add a level 7 defensive tech (not a sb upgrade option) where it would have synergistic shields with other planetary structures. It would also cause damage to be spread out to other structures' shields, making every structure more resistant to obliteration, in line with Advent's synergies. A level 8 additional upgrade would add 100-200 shield for each structure in the group.

Strike craft: late-game should have it possible to add more strike craft to SB. Levels 7-8 tech should grant additional 2-3 strike craft per level to starbases (no sb upgrade needed).

 

Ant YES, 'embetterment' is a perfectly cromulent word.

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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Problem 1: all slots in the upgrade/skill panel are occupied.

Proposed solution: Move the trade ports upgrade to a technology which automatically grants it, at levels 6-8. This gives one extra slot for another skill. Each race would get an additional thing in their starbases.
End of quote
I like this solution. It would make room for another utility upgrade, yet I wouldn't have a clue what would be more useful than BRB or Meteor Storm later during the game.

Problem 3: TEC/Advent starbase is helpless against a massive fleet of extreme range doom. Red Button is a tough pill to swallow if you have invested in other upgrades in the starbase. Meteor shower can do awesome damage, but is also range-limited.
End of quote
The TEC BRB range got buffed so it is actually able to do a heavy amount of damage to a large part of any enemy fleet, no matter the composition of said fleet.

I do think the range on Meteor Shower and possibly also on Mass Disorientation could be buffed. Mass Disorientation is a very useful ability though, which already comes with a long duration and moderate cooldown at level 2.

Strike craft: late-game should have it possible to add more strike craft to SB. Levels 7-8 tech should grant additional 2-3 strike craft per level to starbases (no sb upgrade needed).
End of quote
Instead of adding more strike craft to the starbases (which you mentioned most likely to help it defend itself from massive bomberspam) I vouch for a flak turrets as either a weapons upgrade or an unlockable tech in the techtree. The Orkulus shouldn't be equipped with flak turrets as it is already tremendously powerful.

Wow I write much when I'm drinking...

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

Why is it a problem that starbases can't stand alone against their direct counter? In the late-game, every faction should be able to see a fleet of Orgrovs jumping in from two wells away (potentially further if you're Advent or Vasari). 

If you get caught with your pants down while the whole of your fleet cap is rolled in one tight ball on the other side of the galaxy, I think you 'should' stand to lose some structures.  Games need to end at some point...

On an unrelated note, a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Sakhari, reply 2
On an unrelated note, a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
End of Sakhari's quote
Well that sounds very dirty to say the least.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I agree, starbases need to be buffed up a bit in the late game, especially because of the addition of Titans. Starbases need to be more than minor nuissance for them.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Sakhari, reply 2
Why is it a problem that starbases can't stand alone against their direct counter? In the late-game, every faction should be able to see a fleet of Orgrovs jumping in from two wells away (potentially further if you're Advent or Vasari).
End of Sakhari's quote

I agree, the AI is just playing smarter so it makes a weakness you used to exploit less severe. If the AI was more competent starbases would never have been as powerful in the first place. This surprises some people but you may need to leave small fleets at choke points to back up your starbase against these ships. ;)

Also technically only the Vasari can see more than 3 jumps away.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I do not at all agree with buffing starbases for late game. I really hate that idea because all it will do is drag out the game even further. Late game starbases should be easy to run over with fleets consisting of multiple capital ships or a single titan. Starbases are great for keeping foes in check or really making them work hard in the mid-game, but making them stronger when it's time to decide the victor near the end of the game bothers me. SOASE already can take hours and hours to play. I don't see a need to drag it out further.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting ZJBDragon, reply 6
I do not at all agree with buffing starbases for late game. I really hate that idea because all it will do is drag out the game even further. Late game starbases should be easy to run over with fleets consisting of multiple capital ships or a single titan. Starbases are great for keeping foes in check or really making them work hard in the mid-game, but making them stronger when it's time to decide the victor near the end of the game bothers me. SOASE already can take hours and hours to play. I don't see a need to drag it out further.
End of ZJBDragon's quote

 

But some of us enjoy LOOONG epic games.  :P

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting BrazillianJoe, reply 0
Problem 3: TEC/Advent starbase is helpless against a massive fleet of extreme range doom. Red Button is a tough pill to swallow if you have invested in other upgrades in the starbase. Meteor shower can do awesome damage, but is also range-limited.
End of BrazillianJoe's quote

As others have said, this should be a problem for SBs...asking for SBs to be better against ogrovs is like asking for fighters to be better against flak...

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 5
Also technically only the Vasari can see more than 3 jumps away.
End of GoaFan77's quote

Perhaps he is referring to culture visions which in theory could get that far from your frontline...

The only problem I see with SBs is late game where massive fleets of anything just trounce them...and quite honestly, I'm not sure that's even a problem...if you actually support your SB with a small fleet, you can fair rather well...for example, an Advent SB protected by 2 Halcyons with TK push, some guardians, some defense vessels, and some repairing (repair bays and/or dominas) can do rather well...with 250-300 fleet supply and the proper structures to support it, an Advent SB can stand up to all but the very largest fleets unless your opponent does something crazy, like 100 ogrovs (at which point you should be killing them with your fleet elsewhere)...

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 1
I do think the range on Meteor Shower and possibly also on Mass Disorientation could be buffed. Mass Disorientation is a very useful ability though, which already comes with a long duration and moderate cooldown at level 2.
End of Teun-A-Roonius's quote

I find mass disorientation to be the most overrated ability because it can be interrupted...one kortul with disruptive strikes and that ability is absolutely worthless....change that, and I don't think you'll need to increase the range at all...

If you really want to make SB's better late game, allow them to target bombers and give them more slots (or condense abilities from 2 to 1 upgrades)...the abilities themselves are fine more or less, there's just a heavy opportunity cost for selecting both abilities for your SB.....

 

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8
Perhaps he is referring to culture visions which in theory could get that far from your frontline...
End of Seleuceia's quote

That's the one (as I said, "potentially").

Even without that though, you still have the ability to receive a two-jump heads-up on opposing fleets coming your way.  If you're not paying attention and have no supporting fleet on-hand to counter what's probably a large fleet-cap investment in Ogrovs (which are 12 points apiece for a ship that does nothing but shoot at structures), then you deserve to lose a few of your defensive pieces.  Defending an empire isn't meant to be a drop-and-forget affair.

In the case of the Advent Adjucators, as I recall, they have an even steeper fleet-cap requirement (aren't they 18 each?) and do significantly less damage to single structures.  While they do still outrange starbases, it takes them a good long while to chew through a fully upgraded one without being heavily massed.  In which case, yeah, you should be winning handily with your fleet elsewhere. 

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

I am not proposing to have SB counter its own counter. I think it should be buffed a bit on the late-game phase to make it a little bit stronger.

Even if you get a standby fleet on your defensive perimeter, it is likely that it will have to jump 1-2 gravwells, and the SB should have a little more survivability until they arrive. That's what I want.

How do you do that? With high-tier techs, and SB upgrades. Adding SB upgrades is only possible by freeing up one upgrade slot, and the most inconsequential (balance-wise) is trade ports - well, the other upgrade which is also available for all 3 races is the 'Auxiliary government' thing, which could similarly be moved to a higher-level, tech-only upgrade without upsetting the game balance (which is already in need of some love).

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting ZJBDragon, reply 6
I do not at all agree with buffing starbases for late game. I really hate that idea because all it will do is drag out the game even further. Late game starbases should be easy to run over with fleets consisting of multiple capital ships or a single titan. Starbases are great for keeping foes in check or really making them work hard in the mid-game, but making them stronger when it's time to decide the victor near the end of the game bothers me. SOASE already can take hours and hours to play. I don't see a need to drag it out further.
End of ZJBDragon's quote

Then build 35+ ogrovs and watch how fast any engame starbase will crumble.  Its actually quite fast, with minimal losses.

@ OP

All starbases moving would be a small fix that would add huge fun potential and diversify the racial use of starbases.  Its the best, fastest, and easiest fix, needing only a few small number adjustments with meteor and big red button.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

The tractor beam and especially the teleport sounds cool.
Granted they must not be able to counter their counters effectively, but a little help to fend off attacks which are NOT dedicated efforts in late game (and then only) could work out.

But alas, this close to to release any conceptual musings let alone a proper implementation of such major changes are somewhat moot.

Call me pessimistic but beside a few major Vasari nefs i can only imagine a few crumbs of +X% here and -Y% there going to happen before release, there isn't much time left for anything else.

 

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting el_phantasma, reply 12
The tractor beam and especially the teleport sounds cool.
Granted they must not be able to counter their counters effectively, but a little help to fend off attacks which are NOT dedicated efforts in late game (and then only) could work out.

But alas, this close to to release any conceptual musings let alone a proper implementation of such major changes are somewhat moot.

Call me pessimistic but beside a few major Vasari nefs i can only imagine a few crumbs of +X% here and -Y% there going to happen before release, there isn't much time left for anything else.

 
End of el_phantasma's quote

Sad but true. Still, I wanted to throw the ideas around, just to pass time until release  :grin: .