Rework Advent Loyalist

from Sins Forums

I've been playing them a lot recently. And they are just so lack luster, especially when compared to how awesome the Advent Rebels(Even if they are awesome because of their titan their tech is still meh bit I'll discuss this in another thread.) are. I personally do not think they can be redeemed just but moving around techs. They have a lot of layered problems that need to be addressed. They are probably the worst faction right now because they cannot utilize their tech most of the time. This has to do with how difficult it is to actually be offensive with Culture due to the nature of how late the D-engine comes.

Lets first discuss what should the Advent Loyalist specialize in. For example, TEC-R is Offense(With a focus on economy), TEC-L is Defense(With a focus on Production), VR are Defensive Mobility, the VL have Offensive Mobility, and the AR have have this really strange niche I cannot describe as to me I feel the Advent were really poorly designed but this is about the AL. The Loyalist to me come off as a defensive race(That should be focused on Culture) due to the nature of culture being really hard to spread but this leaves culture with how it was. Underpowered.

1. Tech wise lets start early in the tech tree, they just have WAY to much culture spread, there is such a thing as to much. You get it naturally by upgrading culture, you get culture spread from all of your planets when you get global unity. A good start would be to get rid of Confluence of the Unity and replace it with something else. I personally think they should get an early game upgrade that gives a +5%/+10% increase to the allegiance of their planets(Maybe to balance this out it wont effect allied planets, its essentially an early AotU) this would help them in the economy department which the Advent have always been worse in. This will fix the overlapping of a useless tech and give assistance and maybe a good niche for the Advent Loyalist.

2. Planet for a Planet needs a better description it does not tell you how much it debuffs the enemy in the tooltip and it really needs to as I don't want to research an ability that could be useless. The same goes for Assimilated Populace.

3. Now lets talk about Global unity. My problem with this ability is that a lot of the time you will have culture spread from your tower that you initially placed. Placing Global unity is so cost ineffective its ridiculous. Personally I think that this should come really early like maybe if you don't like my Confluence of the Unity change, place Global Unity there. Global Unity needs to be powerful, needs to come early or it won't be any good.

4. The D-Engine: Personally I think it should come early just like how the TEC-L can get their Novalith early. Make this thing useful for once who cares if it is really strong early on. At least it will finally not suck maybe make it tier 6 and not require Total Assimilation. This way early d-engine pushes can be used before culture can spread to the outer colonies of an enemy system.

5. Cowards Submission: 5% chance to take over an enemy ship. Sorry but these kind of abilities are really bad. I would rather see something like a passive ability added to the ToC that for every second a frigate is around the ToC there is a 5% chance to take over an enemy unit would be SO much better.

6. And lastly Fury of the Unity. This upgrade is so bad its not even funny. So the Advent Loyalist have a +5% damage increase when in their culture from the beginning this can be upgraded to 10%. This is a tier 8 upgrade, that requires you to be in culture, AND you have to tech down the Harmony Tree to get an OFFENSIVE upgrade. And you only give them a +5% damage increase. The Vasari Loyalist get +70% with their wave upgrades, even with Ancient Retribution is freaking awesome but even with all its upgrade like the range increase it even when combined with Fury get NOWHERE near 70% damage. Buff this ability that is so limited in use. Even 20% would be acceptable maybe make it +10%/+20%(Which would add up to 25% due to the innate 5%).

 

I really hope the Devs read this because the Advent Loyalist are really bad :/, make culture broken for them. Why not? Twin Fortress is stupid broken the only actual way to get past it is to culture spam the enemy. Starbase Mobilization is broken so why can culture not be? Its like you guys are afraid to break the Advent. I LOVE YOU GUYS BUT PLEASE MAKE THE ADVENT LOYALIST DEFINED AND GOOD.

35,110 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

BUMP FOR MY MAYALL BALANCE THREAD

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Most of Post: decent comments

Closing Justification: But Mom, the other kids were doing it!

End of quote

I get what you're saying about them being UP, but your closing justification shouldn't have been that the other races have broken things so the AL should too.

Regardless, I'll go down the list..

1. They spread culture rapidly but that's really about it.  Wherever their fleet goes so does their culture.  I wouldn't mind an early game buff to allegiance though as that could give them a much-needed economic boost.

2. Agreed.

3. Not sure what you mean here..  Global Unity is a stupidly efficient research.  You never have to build another ToC again unless you really want to culture-bomb someone.

4. Just make it disable/capture culture centers at the target planet.  Simple solution that would make it way more powerful as you could use it to win wars of culture attrition.

5. Well, as AL, you're going to be fighting defensively in your own culture where you are the master, so I'd expect that there would often times be a decent number of enemies retreating.  Remember this is a free and passive thing.  I haven't tested it, but it might even work on scouts so if a scout enters your territory to report on your status, it might just turn to your side instead.  The information protection of that is actually quite useful.

6. It really seems like it might be better if they just had a tech that outright made them spawn culture from their capitals or something.  Not even that much necessarily.  Even 0.4 per capital would make their fleet very dangerous to behold.  Maybe 0.8 or so from the titan and .2-.3 from capitals and call it Will of the Unity instead.  It would make more sense in the empire tree and would help the AL take their culture with them.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Its more because if we break the Advent Loyalist it will be easier to nerf them to balance. For example, VR is broke as hell right now I personally think they should make starbases only able to jump in friendly gravity wells. I think that will make them balance. With something as poor as culture I think its actually almost necessary to make it outrageously broken before you can balance it. Its an odd balance philosophy but I think it would work.

1. But my main point is that they have to much, when they get GU it spreads at 50%/100% theres no real need for the extra research. But I think you understand that which is why I would like the change.

3. What I mean is when you place down one culture tower it will cover alot of your territory depending on the map you wont need more than 3. 1200/200/325 for upgrade one, 1300/275/350 for upgrade two. Combined is 2500/475/675. Or get 3 towers for 2700/300/525. Sure the numbers are not that far off. Now im not saying GU is bad at all I think its good I just don't think it is just really lackluster for being a races "super tech" like TAR/SB Mobilization/etc.

4. My only problem with this is that wouldn't this make it a, albeit slow, but unstoppable way to take planets from the enemies as it is not effected by aux govt.

5. Yes but what MIGHT happen is different from what will happen  played an AI game and I only got like 3 units over the course of a 7 hour game. The chance is so low its ridiculous, its why hate AR to. Chance abilities very rarely fit into an RTS game.

6. That would be awesome but I really don't think that they need more ways to generate culture. Just more ways to utilize it. But your idea is not a bad one at all.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

3. Okay.  Yes, it is somewhat lackluster, but it will save you a lot of money and you'll never have to worry about culture again.  If nothing else, it effectively removes the thought of culture war from your mind.  Perhaps that's the issue though..   For a race so powerful with culture, a tech that allows the player to ignore it might be the problem.

4. What are Novaliths now?  Novaliths win economic wars of attrition whereas this would help you win culture wars of attrition.  If under fire by them, just expedite the process of attacking.

5. Maybe a slight increase in chance, but honestly, once the AL get better in other regards, they're going to win more battles which means more retreating ships and IMO this could fix itself.

6. Fair enough.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

I agree with a lot said here and have been pushing for the same thing.

1. An early game allegiance buff would be nice, although I would also like to see this complimented later on by an in-culture trade income boost, provided by Assimilated Populace for example.

3. Global Unity can be a very strong tech if it is tier 3 but I don't think it will be a problem.

4. and 5.  Agreed with Volt.

 

6. Glad someone else agrees that Fury of the Unity is pathetic. However, the comparison to plasma wave cannon 70% damage buff is flawed because plasma wave cannons damage increase is overall far more expensive and it applies to a much smaller proportion of the fleet.

I think this tech needs to be radically altered more than any other. Firstly, it really needs to be in the military tree. That alone would be a huge step into making it viable. The tech could also be much more useful if instead of applying to all ships, it instead gave a huge buff only to strike craft. Making the AL the 'strike craft faction' could give them definition which they are currently lacking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5
3. Okay.  Yes, it is somewhat lackluster, but it will save you a lot of money and you'll never have to worry about culture again.  If nothing else, it effectively removes the thought of culture war from your mind.  Perhaps that's the issue though..   For a race so powerful with culture, a tech that allows the player to ignore it might be the problem.

4. What are Novaliths now?  Novaliths win economic wars of attrition whereas this would help you win culture wars of attrition.  If under fire by them, just expedite the process of attacking.

5. Maybe a slight increase in chance, but honestly, once the AL get better in other regards, they're going to win more battles which means more retreating ships and IMO this could fix itself.

6. Fair enough.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

3. I kind of agree. Just I dont know still iffy about its power gauge.

4. This is true but culture actually effects economy on a much large scale. So its not just culture you are effecting its economy as well.

5. Doesn't AL take over the ship after its jumped like there is not way to stop it from jumping. So essentially if the fleet is large enough to be effected by the small 5% you wont actually get the ship because it will die after it jumps? I just don't think its worth it.

Quoting JuleTron, reply 6
I agree with a lot said here and have been pushing for the same thing.

1. An early game allegiance buff would be nice, although I would also like to see this complimented later on by an in-culture trade income boost, provided by Assimilated Populace for example.

3. Global Unity can be a very strong tech if it is tier 3 but I don't think it will be a problem.

4. and 5.  Agreed with Volt.

 

6. Glad someone else agrees that Fury of the Unity is pathetic. However, the comparison to plasma wave cannon 70% damage buff is flawed because plasma wave cannons damage increase is overall far more expensive and it applies to a much smaller proportion of the fleet.

I think this tech needs to be radically altered more than any other. Firstly, it really needs to be in the military tree. That alone would be a huge step into making it viable. The tech could also be much more useful if instead of applying to all ships, it instead gave a huge buff only to strike craft. Making the AL the 'strike craft faction' could give them definition which they are currently lacking.
 

 
End of JuleTron's quote

6. Not really 70% to almost all caps, titan, and a few ships(Like the enforcer) is a really strong fleet. But I agree it just does not make sense being in the harmony tree. It would need to be radically buffed to compensate.

 

There is also one problem I forgot to address in the OP, but why is the Advent the only race to not receive buffs to their weaponry or defense? FotU and Ancient Ret. Kind of counts I suppose. But there were no direct buffs to actual shield/hull/armor. Im just curious to know why. Also TEC Loyalist didnt get the treatment as well(But they have milita weapons/armor).

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Ancient Retribution is good and is the AL's main combat boost tech.  Fury on the other hand is the issue..  I really think making it spawn culture from your capitals (or, alternatively, allow them to repel enemy culture in enemy gravity wells, though at a reduced rate from normal).

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 8
Ancient Retribution is good and is the AL's main combat boost tech.  Fury on the other hand is the issue..  I really think making it spawn culture from your capitals (or, alternatively, allow them to repel enemy culture in enemy gravity wells, though at a reduced rate from normal).
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

Which is reasonable  and would make it worth using o:

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Twin Fortress is stupid broken the only actual way to get past it is to culture spam the enemy. Starbase Mobilization is broken so why can culture not be? 
End of quote

Woah now, that's just not true.  In fact, that sounds like more of a hassle than my usual way of dealing with them.

I deal them a few hundred missiles and they explode violently in what I can only imagine as a futuristic media fiasco.  

The irony here is that I agree with the bulk of your post - even the part about giving Advent Loyalist culture stuff - but if you think the "only actual way to get past" the twin fortresses is culture, you might be overestimating the value of culture to begin with.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting strayth, reply 10

quoting postTwin Fortress is stupid broken the only actual way to get past it is to culture spam the enemy. Starbase Mobilization is broken so why can culture not be? 


Woah now, that's just not true.  In fact, that sounds like more of a hassle than my usual way of dealing with them.

I deal them a few hundred missiles and they explode violently in what I can only imagine as a futuristic media fiasco.  

The irony here is that I agree with the bulk of your post - even the part about giving Advent Loyalist culture stuff - but if you think the "only actual way to get past" the twin fortresses is culture, you might be overestimating the value of culture to begin with.
End of strayth's quote

 

Clearly you have never gone against twin fortresses when with red button. Put them both on the opposite sides of a gravity wells entrance point and bam if you send a fleet have fun getting through.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 7
5. Doesn't AL take over the ship after its jumped like there is not way to stop it from jumping. So essentially if the fleet is large enough to be effected by the small 5% you wont actually get the ship because it will die after it jumps? I just don't think its worth it.
End of MayallCommunion's quote

It doesn't say that on the tech description I'm sure. I thought the whole point is that they convert INSTEAD of fleeing.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 8
Ancient Retribution is good and is the AL's main combat boost tech.  Fury on the other hand is the issue..  I really think making it spawn culture from your capitals (or, alternatively, allow them to repel enemy culture in enemy gravity wells, though at a reduced rate from normal).
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

Why not both? This is a tier 8 tech after all.

 

 

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Honestly All I think needs doing to fix the advent Loyalists is:

 

1).  Buff the Coronata

 

2).  buff the more lackluster combat techs a bit- Fury of the Unity needs to be more potent and Planet-for-a-Planet less situation(I think buffing it's duration from 10 to 15 minutes would be sufficiemt as it would give more time to marshal forces and mount a counteroffensive)

3).  make offensive culture a viable option for the Advent Loyalist.  Frankly the Advent Loyals as I see it are supposed to use culture to force the opponent to attack.  IMO with their later techs enemy allegiance loss should be all but inevitable, forcing opponents to attack or start losing worlds.  Just as military offenses outpace static defenses in the long run advent Loyals need their culture to outpace what opponents can do to defend against it in longer games.

 

#1-2 are pretty straightforward, but #3 is the hard part though- not enough is really known about the inner workings of culture to give particularly good suggestions.  

 

When it comes down to it, the Advent Loyal model probably won't work as long as opponents can simply stop advent loyal culture in a cost effective manner with their own culture buildings & capitalships.  The Advent Loyals are extremely dependant on fighting in their culture- they need to be able to force opponents to fight in their culture- and whether this is accomplished by forcing their opponent to attack or by spreading culture into the well they mean to attack, it is absolutely necesary that the advent LOyals are able to overpowered their opponent's culture in a cost effective manner.

 

 

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Well the thing is I am not really sure how would we make culture offensive. But first which faction was supposed to be the more offensive one? If you look at the other factions its clear which is more offensive to defensive but the Advent are just a clusterfuck of not knowing what the hell I am looking at. The Loyalist being culture based would make me assume that they were going to be more defensive but they have no defense changes at all(The VR have changes to shields+Armor, the TECL have Militia Armor+Defense Upgrades to hull+armor of static D.) but then the AL have offensive upgrades only.

But moving past that rant I think allowing an early D-engine would help improve the Viability of culture based fighting. But its hard to use fleets with so many fleet wiping abilities in game now. Maybe the choice to make the D-engine shut down culture towers isn't a bad one after all.