Is the Large Random Single Star the best map for casual 5v5 games?

Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

There is no such thing as a balanced map...gravity wells can have different numbers of resource asteroids, different militia sizes, hell even the location of your starting frigate factory can affect your early game...

The random huge map may not be perfect, but in all honesty the "fair and balanced" fixed maps aren't either....you'd need a mod that fixes resource asteroids and militia sizes...and even then, the problem with fixed maps is that the game becomes "who knows the map best"...

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The only problem with the Hugh Random games , is the starting positions being random.

In Skilled games , the random positions is a bonus as its challenging our ability to respond and adapt. And skilled players can trust each other to feed , help out fleets and generally build enough units to stave of rushes to the mid-late game

To the Casual gamer unforuntately this means possibly starting 3 gravs from an enemy who might just rush you before you can put down your first civil lab. And the added problem is that in "random casual" games , your not going to have much help from anyone. So the map can be a put off for most casual players.

Hopefully we are going to see some 5v5 side v side matches on fixed maps, where casual players have a bit of time to get themselves up and running , and if they get attacked , their allies have a vested interest in keeping them safe , due to proximity.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Casual players should stick to 4v4s on a 10 player map, or play with all noobs...it's just too hard to learn or have fun when you are getting killed 10 minutes in....

You might get lucky playing with a veteran in a comp stomp who is willing to teach you or help, but very few good players are willing to do that....

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Twin Empires is a good map to play 4v4.

Reason for this is the noob will always start 2 gravs from another player who is on his team and will have to help him out

. Hard to rush on the map too.

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 3

Casual players should stick to 4v4s on a 10 player map, or play with all noobs...it's just too hard to learn or have fun when you are getting killed 10 minutes in....

Actually, that's how you learn. First to counter rushes, and once you can survive most you learn to eco better. Having space between you and opponent only reinforces bad habits from solo play. Basics first.

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,

reply 6

Actually, that's how you learn. First to counter rushes, and once you can survive most you learn to eco better. Having space between you and opponent only reinforces bad habits from solo play. Basics first.

Mecha there are people online who haven't even played a single game yet...if quickstart wasn't on, they wouldn't even know how to get capital ships...5v5 isn't exactly a good place to learn how to play the game, and by learn I'm not talking "how to expand like a pro" or "how to counter corvette spam"....I literally mean learn, as in "how do you colonize planets" and "how does culture work"...

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 7

Quoting Mecha-Lenin, reply 6Actually, that's how you learn. First to counter rushes, and once you can survive most you learn to eco better. Having space between you and opponent only reinforces bad habits from solo play. Basics first.

Mecha there are people online who haven't even played a single game yet...if quickstart wasn't on, they wouldn't even know how to get capital ships...5v5 isn't exactly a good place to learn how to play the game, and by learn I'm not talking "how to expand like a pro" or "how to counter corvette spam"....I literally mean learn, as in "how do you colonize planets" and "how does culture work"...

Learn interface from tutorials
Learn basic expansion, tech tree, counters and capital abilities in SP
Learn how to utilize that knowledge in MP

I think it's pretty obvious.

Why would anyone start playing multi without knowing how to colonize?

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

I don't know but people do...and tutorials don't teach you how to do legit expansion or teach you the counter system....

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I think random maps should be phased out anyway, more decent 5v5 maps made. I understand learning adaptability but also from a 5v5 standpoint you could get a team cohesion going is a balanced map.

Having said that i understand militia and extractors are still a variable, but you're at least reducing the amount of variables. And learning how to play maps and forward planning imo make a game more competitive.

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I heard tick tack toe doesn't have many variables; some even consider it a competitive game.

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Quoting aGAvA,

reply 10

I think random maps should be phased out anyway, more decent 5v5 maps made. I understand learning adaptability but also from a 5v5 standpoint you could get a team cohesion going is a balanced map.

Having said that i understand militia and extractors are still a variable, but you're at least reducing the amount of variables. And learning how to play maps and forward planning imo make a game more competitive.

so i read what you wrote...

you're wrong?

yes.

10 yeses.

Please, all that would do is make the game more boring. At least this is exciting because each time you have to keep thinking of new strategies to deal with what the map generator gave you. As soon as custom maps become the normal, all that will happen is one or two viable strategies are found for each position, and if you don't do them you lose, and you know what your enemy will do before you even scout. Sound fun?

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Quoting Nightraid3r,

reply 12

Please, all that would do is make the game more boring. At least this is exciting because each time you have to keep thinking of new strategies to deal with what the map generator gave you. As soon as custom maps become the normal, all that will happen is one or two viable strategies are found for each position, and if you don't do them you lose, and you know what your enemy will do before you even scout. Sound fun?

Nope.

The crew I usually play with place everything on slow or normal (sometimes a mix) and play large random maps. We set it up with FFA and fill the empty slots with Hard / Unfair AI. Some people grumble due to the games taking 6 hours however, due to the slower nature, and the DPS stays the same ... results of winning, losing, or having your main fleet (or supporting fleet) 3 jumps away suddenly become much more influential.

That being said, it is what we prefer. Faster games are fine too. You just are able to jump your fleet back and forth across your empire easier, though the micro gets a bit harder.

(Reference Reply #17 for my finished thoughts).

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Quoting boshimi336,

reply 13

Quoting Nightraid3r, reply 12Please, all that would do is make the game more boring. At least this is exciting because each time you have to keep thinking of new strategies to deal with what the map generator gave you. As soon as custom maps become the normal, all that will happen is one or two viable strategies are found for each position, and if you don't do them you lose, and you know what your enemy will do before you even scout. Sound fun?

Nope.

The crew I usually play with place everything on slow or normal (sometimes a mix) and play large random maps. We set it up with FFA and fill the empty slots with Hard / Unfair AI. Some people grumble due to the games taking 6 hours however, due to the slower nature, and the DPS stays the same ... results of winning, losing, or having your main fleet (or supporting fleet) 3 jumps away suddenly become much more influential.

That being said, it is what we prefer. Faster games are fine too. You just are able to jump your fleet back and forth across your empire easier, though the micro gets a bit harder.

How does this have anything to do with random maps?

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Quoting Nightraid3r,

reply 14

How does this have anything to do with random maps?

It was random?

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 15

Quoting Nightraid3r, reply 14How does this have anything to do with random maps?

It was random?

fair

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I guess my point (albeit poorly made ... ) is that a Huge Random Map for 10 players is a lot of fun. I think it is one of the better ways that players can not only keep being challenged by different map setups and starting situations, but that is has immense playability for a variety of game settings to suit a lot of different play styles.

Sorry for the confusion. I was agreeing with Nightraid3r. I just never finished my thoughts in my previous post.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting aGAvA,

reply 10

I think random maps should be phased out anyway, more decent 5v5 maps made. I understand learning adaptability but also from a 5v5 standpoint you could get a team cohesion going is a balanced map.

The problem is that custom maps will not auto-download. It's possible to play them, but it requires effort on the part of players to obtain the maps and install them. Even downloading and running an effortless auto-install program that will take less than 1 minute from the start of web surfing to having the map installed is often too much to ask.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting Nightraid3r,

reply 12

Please, all that would do is make the game more boring. At least this is exciting because each time you have to keep thinking of new strategies to deal with what the map generator gave you. As soon as custom maps become the normal, all that will happen is one or two viable strategies are found for each position, and if you don't do them you lose, and you know what your enemy will do before you even scout. Sound fun?

What if you had a choice of 200 playable custom maps for 5v5? Would it really be possible to master all of them?

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Seleuceia

Join Date 01/2008

+240

Quoting DirtySanchezz,

reply 19

What if you had a choice of 200 playable custom maps for 5v5? Would it really be possible to master all of them?

Doesn't matter...someone hosts a game on a map, for all you know they play that map all day and you've never played it...sure, it's new to you, but someone will know it and it'll be a game of "Who knows map best?"...

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 20

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
reply 19
What if you had a choice of 200 playable custom maps for 5v5? Would it really be possible to master all of them?

Doesn't matter...someone hosts a game on a map, for all you know they play that map all day and you've never played it...sure, it's new to you, but someone will know it and it'll be a game of "Who knows map best?"...

Thats completely wrong. Thats just as bad as saying a pro player hosts a game of Sins of a solar empire. Hes being playing that game all day all year , and you have just bought the game and your completely new . Its gonna be a game of "who knows soase best?"

Do you complain? no . Accept that his dedication to learning a map , gives him an advantage.

Mastery of Build Orders

Mastery of Micro techniques

Mastery of Research queues

and Mastery of Maps , its just another vital element of learning RTS games.

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Quoting P5yy,

reply 21

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 20

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
reply 19
What if you had a choice of 200 playable custom maps for 5v5? Would it really be possible to master all of them?

Doesn't matter...someone hosts a game on a map, for all you know they play that map all day and you've never played it...sure, it's new to you, but someone will know it and it'll be a game of "Who knows map best?"...

Thats completely wrong. Thats just as bad as saying a pro player hosts a game of Sins of a solar empire. Hes being playing that game all day all year , and you have just bought the game and your completely new . Its gonna be a game of "who knows soase best?"

Do you complain? no . Accept that his dedication to learning a map , gives him an advantage.

Mastery of Build Orders

Mastery of Micro techniques

Mastery of Research queues

and Mastery of Maps , its just another vital element of learning RTS games.

Except Sins isn't typical RTS. Actually, you can't compare it to any other MP game, at least not accurately.

One of fun elements of Sins is unpredictability of every game. You can be 1j away from your opponent (rush or defend&expand) or you can be 5+ j away (go eco or push fast towards opponent? choices, choices). You can be placed in ABAB fashion, which again forces you to adapt fast. So, ability to think fast separates good players from bad ones, not knowing every centimeter of every map.

That being said, random map generator is extremely buggy and could use tuning. Also, some elements of it could be just a little less... random, like neut distribution or maybe 1 guaranteed planet. I made numerous posts about it, so I will not repeat myself in this thread.

+1

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Quoting Mecha-Lenin,

reply 22

One of fun elements of Sins is unpredictability of every game.

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,

reply 22

That being said, random map generator is extremely buggy and could use tuning.

I completely agree with Mecha-Lenin on this.

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 1

There is no such thing as a balanced map...gravity wells can have different numbers of resource asteroids, different militia sizes, hell even the location of your starting frigate factory can affect your early game...

The random huge map may not be perfect, but in all honesty the "fair and balanced" fixed maps aren't either....you'd need a mod that fixes resource asteroids and militia sizes...and even then, the problem with fixed maps is that the game becomes "who knows the map best"...

So you make a grid. Players start in each corner, and the layout becomes obvious immediately. All planets and asteroids suck equally.

Or you make it like the classic Starcraft map Bloodbath; but with two back entrances (a single front in this game causes stalemates, I'm sure you know).

Is there any way for me to load up a custom in multi and have other players just download/join it ingame?

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Saying that it creates new strategies is a ton of bollocks. I play almost identically each game, i know the game plan in advance. There is very little change even in a suicide spot.. unless you bunker, but then you're relying on feed, likely to be doubled.. it only makes a game shorter or just more annoying.

On the other hand balanced maps allow a divergence of strategies. Maybe using wormholes more often or side phase lanes.

Getting the maps to auto download would be amazing. And perhaps a map preview would be sexy too..

It would make the game a little more intense from my point since you will be fighting on equal terms, making it more about skill rather than luck. But carry on lucking your way through sins..

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Well, they do have "Competitive" map types now. I would like to see better support for custom maps. Also, are most of them on wincustomize, or is there another site I'm unaware of?

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