So why are Reb Orkies OP

from Sins Forums

I can understand why people are very concerned about jumping starbases but I fail to see how it will ultimately break balance. So could all the wizened players read my thoughts and tell me why I am wrong?

 

Considering the following I personally think that having a mobile starbase is not a bad idea. It patches a weak spot in vasari tactics, allows for a very cost risky but effective strategy, and is not all that equivalent to another titan. It costs a lot to build them and they are only moderately effective. All the other factions are more than able to take them out.

 

1. Starbases are way more expensive than a Titan. Titans also level and will be more difficult to fight later on. I also believe it takes an upgrade for them to jump

2. Only one starbase per well (except stars, though I understand that is a glitch.)

3. Starbases are easily destroyed by siege frigates. And the Orkuli can be taken out by a large fleet without many casualties.

4. Vasari don't have siege frigates. It is expected that the Orkulus will replace them but it takes time to build in an enemy gravity well and they are difficult to keep alive long enouogh. (didn't they turn off jumping to enemy wells anyways?)

5. Orkuli don't have any uncapped area of effect abilities. Ergo they can't nuke everything in the well with asteroids or self destruct.

6. Vasari capital ships are generally weaker in game. Their frigates are better but also few enough to balance the strength. A orkuli is balance improving support.

7. Other subfactions have other boosts. TEC Loyalists have twin starbases that will take out an orkuli easily. Tec Rebels have a very good titan for destroying large targets and are allied with pirates (which right now due to another bug could be bought as raids by an ally creating defense fleets.) Advent Loyalists assimilate enemy fleets including a good portion of retreating ships.(in beta .75 they assimilated my allies fleets.) Advent Rebels reincarnate themselves and enemies. Vasari loyalists can be nomadic if they so choose, can eat enemy fleets, and have capital ships that double as tax centers and research facilities.

 

8. Concessions. I do think that there should be a reasonable 25-100 CP or 1 Crew cost to  building each warp capable starbase. If I remember right the warp drive is an upgrade and that is good. Maybe it could be edited?

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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

1. Starbases are way more expensive than a Titan. Titans also level and will be more difficult to fight later on. I also believe it takes an upgrade for them to jump
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Titan + Titan foundry + 4 required techs + 2 capital crew techs + 1 fleet supply tech

Quite expensive, especially since the only way you can make one better is through combat...SBs, meanwhile don't require any risk or combat to upgrade, just money...

3. Starbases are easily destroyed by siege frigates. And the Orkuli can be taken out by a large fleet without many casualties.
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I assume you mean anti-structure frigates (like ogrovs)...problem is that Orky can chase them and kill them (something other SB can't do)...you need an assine amount of ogrovs and have to catch the Orky in a really bad spot in order to actually kill a fully upgraded Orky...

Additionally, ogrovs serve only one purpose: SB killing...investing in them presents a huge opportunity cost - yeah, you may kill the Orky but now what? The enemy will walk over you with their fleet because you have none...ogrovs are expensive and take up lots of fleet supply...they have their place but they are by no means a viable counter against jumping orkies...

4. Vasari don't have siege frigates. It is expected that the Orkulus will replace them but it takes time to build in an enemy gravity well and they are difficult to keep alive long enouogh. (didn't they turn off jumping to enemy wells anyways?)
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Bombers in general are more useful...TEC and Advent players still prefer to use bombers over anti-structure ships, mainly because they are actually useful in fleet battles as well...so, Vasari aren't really at a massive disadvantage there...plus, you can still bring in a migrator and build an SB there that can then move in to attack...can be tricky at times but the Orky and the tricks you can do with it more than makes up for a lack of anti-structure ships...

There are several things you are forgetting or haven't properly addressed...fleets require factories, which take up logistic slots that otherwise could go to trade ports or labs (read: money)...SBs require no fleet supply, allowing greater economic development than someone with a large fleet could obtain....jumping Orkies can be "stockpiled"...you can put one on each planet, and just bring them in as you lose them...you don't have "spare" fleets, you have to remake those from scratch ever time they are killed...

I'm not trying to be mean here, but if you really don't think VR are OP with jumping orkies, then you haven't played against someone who can use them even remotely well...any decent eco player can just throw one of these to each of their frontliners with little skilll and single handedly decide the game...

 

 

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Considering the following I personally think that having a mobile starbase is not a bad idea. It patches a weak spot in vasari tactics, allows for a very cost risky but effective strategy, and is not all that equivalent to another titan. It costs a lot to build them and they are only moderately effective. All the other factions are more than able to take them out.
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Vasari did not have a weak spot in tactics and is considered to be the most formidable race played.

The reason why it is OP is because upkeep need never be raised to build a fleet of jumping orkies. 

Currently it only requires ONE research to enable phase jumping on ALL orkies. 

Consider an ECO player that is capable of building Orky fleets of doom while NEVER increasing their upkeep. 

Fleet supply and upkeep is a major balancing construct of Sins which this completely ignores.

The reason why it was less of an issue with non-phase jumping starbases was it required a starbase to be constructed in the enemies gravity well which was potentially defensible. Though even a viable tactic in Diplomacy and Entrenchment with Vasari, a successful enemy deployment of an Orky resulted in time and funds being directed at a Starbase that could NEVER leave that gravity well. Now you can fully upgrade a starbase in safety and jump it with fleets or into enemy territory with much much less opportunity cost.

 

I consider Vasari Loyalists to have a similar yet different balance flaw in that they can increase fleet supply but STRIP planets without any regard to UPKEEP. This allows a VL player to reach critical fleet supply status far before non-VL factions. 

 

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

1. Economy is almost never a problem, ever.

2. Thats kind of the rule.. I don't see how that is relevant.

3. Its the combination of Titan + Orky, your siege frigates will just waste resources and only the TEC's are actually cost effective.

4. Its the combination of Titan + Orky

5. Its the combination of Titan + Orky, orky also does damage because of its weapons banks.

6. no.

7. Twin Starbases is pretty broke to with red button, but its situationally broken. TAR isn't that good to be honest, its a trade off, also why include their titan if you didn't include the Vasari-Rebels.  Don't even try to call the Advent Loyalist good. Advent Rebels are pretty broke once they get there titan + guardians/Defense Vessels out. The Vasari Loyalist are balanced however. Yes they have there perks but the point is Orky + titan is broke theres no point in comparing it to other races.

The only feasible  solution is to make jumping orkies only able to jump in friendly gravity wells(Maybe suns/Pirate Bases too). It also fits the Rebel theme of defense.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Think of a tower rush in any other RTS, but without any of the drawbacks (the towers can move, and aren't vulnerable when building).  Orkuli were designed as a defensive measure - they cost a lot, but those costs are repaid with an incredibly tough vessel that can defeat small-mid-sized fleets by itself and slow down larger ones for quite a while.  When it costs you absolutely nothing (once the tech is researched) to convert an installation balanced for defense into an offensive option, you have a problem.

And god help you if you're facing a Vasari Rebel team.  Good luck facing 5-Orkuli attacks in multiple gravwells at once, using Phase Stablizer Arrays to reinforce while counterattacks are handled in the same manner.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Ok I see the points with the bombers etc. I don't play much ICO and V AI I tend to be a little heavy on fighters to maintain air superiority. And I disregarded the relative difficulty in unlocking the Titan v the Starbase. I do have to say the Starbase is still a much more expensive purchase. I also wasn't thinking much about the eco side of things and the upkeep income modifier. I did consider the stockpiling of starbases but even in the biggest maps I have found that that is a huge drain on resources but often its because I am building 7 or 8 at once trying to establish a defensive perimeter. I never thought much about logistics slots beside research. I am not trying to be antagonistic or anything here. I don't play online much because of an issue with my ISP where they reconnect my service every couple of hours (and boot me from whatever I am doing.) and so I end up playing lan with people who like me mostly fight an often disappointing AI. So you aren't being mean just enlightening me.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

the ability should be an idividual starbase upgrade, not a global research. That would go a long way in improving balance.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Wintercross, reply 7
the ability should be an idividual starbase upgrade, not a global research. That would go a long way in improving balance.
End of Wintercross's quote

Indeed. This would be the one thing that would help the most, especially if it took at least two upgrades as that would diminish a jumping orkies' combat power.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Aesthetic wise I think it would be best to just make them only able to jump in friendly gravity wells because they are the more defensive Vasari counterpart. But your ideas make sense to.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Make it a 2 level starbase upgrade, and they need to cost fleet supply.

 

Its OP because its a very powerful unit that does not cost any fleet supply. 

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Starbases were designed assuming they could not jump from one sector to another.  The bonus that offsets that weakness and balances starbases against actual ships is that starbases are extremely cost effective, especially at higher upgrade values.  Part of this cost effectiveness is in them not consuming any fleet supply of course.

 

The only thing balancing this extreme cost efficiency is that they are permanently bound in a  single gravity well.  Frankly offensive orkies need to be much closer in cost efficiency to normal fleet ships then traditional defensive starbases.  They still should be a bit more cost effective then ships as they are supposed to be an advantage, but the gap has to be much smaller then it is now.

 

AT the very least making the orky jump capable needs to eat up 1-2 upgrade slots on the orky.  Ideally said upgrade should also make them use fleet supply- nothing huge, maybe 50-75 would do it- just something to prevent the Vasari from building a large number of them without increasing their fleet upkeep.