Yeah but wouldn't it be places without logistical slots? I was thinking of how the vanilla sins presented culture, it was supposed to be more deadly then it was. Right now having the "stronger culture" doesn't accomplish anything offensively, other then the secondary effects they provide.

As for attacking far flung places....they are far flung places they are supposed to be hard to attack. You can still go in a wipe everything, and leave (particularly if Vasari) without colonizing. Or you could "hunt down" the hostile culture center.

I'm surprised you guys think it is hard to counter an Advent SB with nodes. Playing against AI, I've maxed out nodes on forward SBs but the AI was always able to counter with his culture (all the caps he had was one low level since I continually blew them up). On the other hand, going against player Advent SB nodes I've never had a problem countering with far less logistical slots then it should have cost (5 nodes + SB nodes against 3 of my nodes -- kinda rough since we blew each others up occasionally).

Can you explain a little more?

Honestly while I'm not sure I agree with Coronal's proposition, but using this sort of thinking I doubt culture will ever be made into a competitive option.  Frankly for it to be strong it needs to be possible to have a strong enough culture push that the opponent's only option is to start huntign and destroying broadcast centers in nearby gravity wells.

As long as the enemy can easily rebuff enemy culture with 1-2 broadcast centers or always ensure they can colonize planets they destroy with the presence of a few capitalships, culture won't really serve much of a purpose.  Frankly culture will never be very useful if it can't even force the opponent to engage in a less then desirable course of action.

The problem with culture at present is that defending against it doesn't require any real sacrifice.  Defending against culture pushes costs less then the aggressor spends on the culture push.  Due to capitalship culture repel defensive culture can't even keep an attackigng fleet from colonizing.  The enemy should have to pay a cost to overcome the culture- whether this cost is in resources or in wasted time spent marauding enemy worlds destroying broadcast centers rather then colonizing newly conquered worlds immediately- at present this cost isn't really present as the counters to culture are more easily and cheaply available then culture it's self.

Well I did say the ability for V would not be removed, (the research, I think it is called "shock and awe"?) would give some culture push for the Vasari. VL definitely need it since they are mobile.

As for not being able to cultural defend certain places, sure it is true. SBs are still an option, and the only place that can't have culture centers are dead asteroids (even these can with TEC development mandate). For those few instances where it is truly, truly unavoidable, sweet! Advent especially were supposed to have a cultural advantage, and making it more threatening is awesome. Even while losing you can still def the place up, since culture takes a long time to act. And you would have time to potentially take out some culture nodes, and now they are in fact a target instead of always being the last thing you worry about.

Additionally this would force other players to attack more often, make the game less static.

For a deep hit, all that is usually needed is attacking 2 planets instead of one. As soon as one planet is colonizable, plop a media port down. Normally, deep behind enemy lines means they won't be using lots of culture beyond just providing 10% boost. If they do have something insane like 8, that hurts 8 other factory/labs etc. and is probably a counter to VL SttC.

Advent are strongest with culture.

Vasari can raid places with culture with phase nodes.

TEC can use scouts with timed charges or other raids to take out high value nodes.

I just keep thinking how worthless culture is 95% of the time other then to provide the 10% allegiance. Although instead of destroying Caps ability to repulse culture, you could argue to just nerf it considerably. Or something else entirely this is just an idea.

Overly complicated I think. Forcing the player to give up a factory/lab/trade port to put up another culture is better if possible.

Off topic from the Revelation now, although changes to one thing brings changes to others.....

How's the progress coming on it Zombie?

I've been thinking a bit more on this issue and something occurred to me:  Reverie has certainly become less useful late game in rebellion then it would have been in diplomacy.  In diplomacy it could lock down the biggest fish in the pond(capitalships), which is nolonger the case(titans are immune to disables).

Moreover there is A LOT more AoE flying around now the least of which is the advent titans attacking 4-3-3-4 enemies with their fore-side-side-back banks.  That's potentially 14 enemies, only one of which you choose.  These circumstances makes keeping enemies locked down in reverie much more difficult and often a matter of luck.  Not to mention reverie has always had problems in late game fleet battles as if enemy focus-fire forces the Revelation to retreat out of range, all reveries end prematurely.

Which leads me to believe we may be thinking in the wrong direction.    Rather then try to make the Revelation a strong late game combat frigate(which is an uphill battle) as many ideas involving a rework of Guidance have attempted, I suspect a better choice may be to focus on buffing the Revelation's early game combat presence.

It's level 6 ability alone would give it a reasonable transition into a siege-ship late game, but making it strong in the early game when fleets are small(perhaps even as a start ship) would be a great way to round the Revelation out, playing to the strengths it already has and giving it more of a purpose.

Now this is all very abstract, the question then becomes how could this be accomplished?  Guidance seems to be the obvious candidate, and that said what generally makes ships strong in the early game is one thing: Raw firepower added.  Note the word "added".  Most fleetwide buffs are fairly small and pander more to the late game as a result.  More often abilities that create ships, or give large buffs or debuffs on a small scale tend to add more raw firepower to a small fleet.

Traditionally this is the reason carriers have a long history of being used as early game capitalships- their complement of strikecraft mean they have more raw firepower then other capitalships.  Not to mention all 3 carriers have an ability which adds firepower independent of fleet size(Missile Batteries, Expert Drone Anima, & Scramble Bombers).

Of course there are a number of ways to go about reworking Guidance to give the Revelation more of an early game combat presence.  The first that popped into my head which would accomplish this while making thematic sense for the name "guidance" was:

Guidance:  Target single Allied Frigate or Squadron of Strikecraft Deals 80/120/160/200% increase damage, has it's abilities cooldown 100% faster, and gains +4/6/8/10 armor for 30 seconds

Cooldown: 35 seconds

AM cost: 50/55/60/65

Note: the numbers looks big, but keep in mind this ability would be unable to target capitalships, titans, or starbases.  it supercharges one of the little guys, that's all.

[comments:  This ability would allow a single allied frigate or strikecraft squadron to do it's job substantially better, whatever that job may be, with added survivability.  Not hugely significant late game, but very potent and flexible early game when fleets are small.  Numbers of course may not be right, but view this more as a proof of concept.]

As I said previously there are a ton of other ways guidance could be reworked to accomplish this goal- this one was simply the first that popped into my head.

Also, Volt's implementation of Clairvoyance from his mod would be another tremendous contribution towards focusing on buffing the Revelation's early game, as getting deployable free culture centers would be most potent early when the enemy hasn't had time to build much culture.

All that said, specific ideas aside what do you guys think?  I'm really startign to believe the key to making the revelation viable is to focus on early game buffs.  If it had a strong early military presence that transitioned into a siege ship late game I suspect it would get used a lot more.

I remembered my one battle against a cruel AI in Diplomacy. I was TEC, my main fleet consisted of 7 Capital Ships and mixed TEC auxiliary fleets. The AI has at least 8 Capital Ships there.

At the battle my Capital ship fleets were heavily handicapped by the two Lv6 Revelation. At most time of the battle I always have at least 3 Capital Ships sleeping there.

What makes the thing worse, was that the AI sent about 20 Disciple Vessels first and lately about another 30. The antimatters of my 3 Dunovs were all empty, and all I could do was no more than watching my sleeping beauties die.

Maybe lockdown abilities should affect star bases now

I'm assuming this would include planet bombing damage of purge vessels? I only ask because that would also help with the Revelation's early game bombing.

At least one of the non-ultimate abilities on the Revelation needs to directly help with planet bombing...no matter how useful an individual abilities is, if none of them help with bombing then the Revelation will still be fundamentally flawed...

Definitely, while my idea should not add quite as much raw firepower as Scramble Bombers or Sova Missile Batteries, it's strength would be in versatility.  it could be used to speed siege by boosting Purge Vessels, Structure detrsuction by buffing bombers or Adjucators, or aid in fighting a specific type of frigate by boosting a frigate that deals whichever type of damage suites the moment best.

Glad to hear it's growing on you, while the numbers may not be perfect, I think the rough model of the ability has some good potential to create a unique and useful ability. 

And while I certainly think the key to bringing the revelation up to snuff lies in buffing it's early game, improving it's late game a bit by adding an alternate effect against titans to reverie certainly wouldn't hurt.  Increased weapon cooldowns  would definitely be a simple and elegant solution. Makes sense as well- can't put the titan entirely to sleep, but you could make them a bit drowsy while you focus on killing their allies then the titan it's self. 

Looks good. However, as the Revelation gains levels, the game progresses until this ability is not all that useful so increasing AM cost per level sounds unnecessary. If any thing, AM cost should decrease per level.

Reverie probably should not increase ability cool downs on enemy Titans and SBs because debuffing Titans is what the Discord's Lethargy ability is for, same with Detonate AM.