My impressions so far after 1vs1 hard AI and 12hours

Hi All,

This is my second Sins Reb game, the game has lasted so far 12hours and is now almost won (only 1 planet left for AI), victory conditions left unchaged (I should have already won by capital planet takeover), pirates enabled, TEC loyalost.

I am not gonna make a full review, I'll just say that, as a veteran 4x player (turn based usually) and I am so far very pleased by this game, and I will likely put a lot more hours into it. 

Here are some point left for analysis:

1. I get always owned by pirates.

I almost always, ALWAYS over bid for pirate bounty, during end game i am spending 8K+ to avoid a pirate raid; I feel this is particularly innefective as I should be able to take them over but I haven't managed to repel even one single pirate raid ?!

I even tried with my ankylon LVL10 titan with maxed defense skills and almost maxed military techs : the AI fleet can barely scratch the painting of his hull but the pirate fleet TROUNCE it fiercely in a few minutes !! (okay, I tried with the titan alone vs pirates but I understood reading many posts that by late game, pirates raid should be like butterflies against titans )

2. My Ankylon LVL10 titan + strikecraft bomber fleet around combo him seems invulnerable :  the ennemy ships seems attracted by the titan like flies are swarming on honey, strikecraft are left alone a bombers are very effectives agains capitals. Titan takes care of the swarm (perphaps this works better in friendly planet, not sure if I am so invul on ennemy planet).  

3. I unlocked the late game stalemate by building a novalith cannon + planet bomber Marza dreadnought : coming along with my titan, the dreadnought could bomb planets very easily while the AI fleet was busy with the titan. 

Now I feel like my titan is the queen of a hive ;)

I would be interested to have the feedback of more experienced players 

Thanks

 

D

7,359 views 10 replies
Reply #1 Top

Most players turn off pirates for competitive MP.

 

However, it has been noticed many times that noobs find pirates very deadly, while any experienced players find them bugs on a windshield. Most games against the AI, with the exception of the first one or two raids, I never place a bounty.

This should give you some comfort, as you get used to the game you will find pirates get less deadly. 12hrs is a very, very long game against 1 hard AI. With practice you'll get that down to under an hour (depending on your speed settings). So don't fret the pirates. Turn them off if you need too while learning more of the game, although I do believe at some point you will need to turn them back on to get the hang of it.

Anti pirate techniques: If it is an early raid (no siege ships), against a planet with nothing but extractors, let them be. They'll head back to base after killing all structures/ships in the grav well. If it is more developed, put trade or refineries there. Pirates love to chase your little ships all around while your guns take them out one at a time. Build units in clusters so they can focus fire a target.

 

Good luck!

Reply #2 Top

hmmmmm... are you using a mod, because the pirates should not be very deadly late game.

I know with mods like Distant Stars and Maelstrom the pirates send out capital ships which (in DS) can be quite devastating.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting AseOfSpadez, reply 2
I know with mods like Distant Stars and Maelstrom the pirates send out capital ships which (in DS) can be quite devastating.
End of AseOfSpadez's quote

For newer players the pirates can still be quite deadly, especially if they haven't figured out which planet they'll probably end up attacking and don't starbase + repair bay it.

I am not gonna make a full review, I'll just say that, as a veteran 4x player (turn based usually) and I am so far very pleased by this game, and I will likely put a lot more hours into it.
End of quote

Awesome, I just assumed a lot of 4X pros would get kind of turned off by the RTS combat, but glad you like it.

I almost always, ALWAYS over bid for pirate bounty, during end game i am spending 8K+ to avoid a pirate raid; I feel this is particularly innefective as I should be able to take them over but I haven't managed to repel even one single pirate raid ?!
End of quote

Here's a tip, all else being equal the AI will but bounty on players it doesn't like if teams aren't present. This means if gets some of the diplomatic relations techs (and you should if you're in an open diplomacy FFA), and put bounty on the player who likes you the most and isn't an ally, you can usually start a bidding war between that player and the player he likes the least.

I even tried with my ankylon LVL10 titan with maxed defense skills and almost maxed military techs : the AI fleet can barely scratch the painting of his hull but the pirate fleet TROUNCE it fiercely in a few minutes !! (okay, I tried with the titan alone vs pirates but I understood reading many posts that by late game, pirates raid should be like butterflies against titans )
End of quote

This does sound a bit odd. Pirates were sort of buffed recently as they get more upgrades over time, so in very long games maybe that's possible. Most of the player base does not play with them though, so it might have gone unnoticed.

3. I unlocked the late game stalemate by building a novalith cannon + planet bomber Marza dreadnought : coming along with my titan, the dreadnought could bomb planets very easily while the AI fleet was busy with the titan.
End of quote

If you play with capital victory on, using the TEC loyalists to try and rush to Novaliths can be effective, especially on the AI. You can only build 4 but it takes two shots close together to destroy any planet but a fully upgraded homeworld (well besides the occupied planet), while an upgraded homeworld will take 3. Human players will build a starbase with the axillary government upgrade to prevent this, but many times the AI doesn't do this or is just too slow at building one. If not on capital victory, the huge economic penalties the Novalith inflicts ensures you will eventually win a war of attrition,

Marzas are definitely one of the TEC's best 3 capitalships, the Akkan and Sova should probably be your first two in some order, but after the second ones Marza's remain a strong choice for the rest of the game. Its a nice offensive touch to compliment the Loyalist titan, and its ultimate ability, missile barrage, can destroy most frigates if it is not interrupted.

I would be interested to have the feedback of more experienced players
End of quote

Its kind of hard to give the feedback you probably really need without more details of how you actually play, but I'd say early game expansion is the single thing you should try to do better each time you play. It's much easier to take a neutral planet than an enemy one, even if you prefer the more defensive TEC Loyalists you cannot ignore the economic potential of those easy picking planets early on. Not only are planets easy to make profitable, but each one gives you more logistic slots for more research labs and trade ports later on, thus determining your maximum economic and research potential.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3

Awesome, I just assumed a lot of 4X pros would get kind of turned off by the RTS combat, but glad you like it.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

Actually, I found the pace relatively slow, APM matter less I think (and you can pause and give order in SP)

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3

Here's a tip, all else being equal the AI will but bounty on players it doesn't like if teams aren't present. This means if gets some of the diplomatic relations techs (and you should if you're in an open diplomacy FFA), and put bounty on the player who likes you the most and isn't an ally, you can usually start a bidding war between that player and the player he likes the least.
End of GoaFan77's quote

understood, but this game is a 1vs1 so it does not apply.

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3
This does sound a bit odd. Pirates were sort of buffed recently as they get more upgrades over time, so in very long games maybe that's possible.
End of GoaFan77's quote

I'll try to post pictures or a record of this fight. 

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3
. Most of the player base does not play with them though, so it might have gone unnoticed.
End of GoaFan77's quote

Do you know why most player does not play with pirates ? I find it quite fun ..


Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3

Marzas are definitely one of the TEC's best 3 capitalships, the Akkan and Sova should probably be your first two in some order, but after the second ones Marza's remain a strong choice for the rest of the game. Its a nice offensive touch to compliment the Loyalist titan, and its ultimate ability, missile barrage, can destroy most frigates if it is not interrupted.
End of GoaFan77's quote

What about Kol ? In this game, I need to invade one more planet wihch is heavily defended, because of my flourishing economy I took time to build a gigantic fleet (lvl 10 titan, 5 Kol leveled to 3, countless frigates, strike craft, corvettes, repair ships ...) even with this overwhelming fleet My kols are  wiped out in a few minutes (I'll try to post a record/screenshots too). I don't really understand how this is possible

 

 

 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting davidoux, reply 5
Do you know why most player does not play with pirates ? I find it quite fun ..
End of davidoux's quote

Its random, arbitrary and certain to bite you when you can least afford it. The exact amount of time you have to place bounty is random so no one can "play" the system with certainty, but just 250 credits can make the difference between getting raided when your main fleet is already getting hammered by a real enemy. Ironically since you probably have your full attention on the attacking forces in this case, you're also most vulnerable in a bidding war as you'll be most distracted. As long one player has more bounty than you, it doesn't matter how big it is, in theory you could have a huge bounty on you the entire game, and never get a pirate raid sent at you. Most people say they would prefer pirates that wouldn't follow a set schedule and just attack whenever bounties get high enough (you can sort of do this with pirate missions though).

On the other end of the spectrum, for the good players at best its just a mild inconvenience to deal with pirates, at worst its free XP for their caps or worse titan. This means with an all pro game, if pirates were left on no one would place any bounties (and they certainly have more pressing things to spend money on), and they might actually want to be the target. Since if all players have equal bounty the pirates attack randomly, in a perverse way its randomly helping certain players, and the pros only want enough randomness to keep the game interesting, mainly in map positions. Anything else they hate, since it interferes with testing their skills against each other.

In short, pirates have always been to hard for new players, discouraging them right after the tutorial, and not hard enough for the best of players. The devs have tried making them both harder and easier than they are now, but this just shifts people from one category to another, its just something you can never please everyone with. So most people turn them off.

Quoting davidoux, reply 5
What about Kol ? In this game, I need to invade one more planet wihch is heavily defended, because of my flourishing economy I took time to build a gigantic fleet (lvl 10 titan, 5 Kol leveled to 3, countless frigates, strike craft, corvettes, repair ships ...) even with this overwhelming fleet My kols are wiped out in a few minutes (I'll try to post a record/screenshots too). I don't really understand how this is possible

End of davidoux's quote

The Kol is actually the laughing stock of the TEC capitalship roster. It's the signature ship of Sins (people who got the collector edition of Sins will get a model of it), but its been woefully weak for years. Its main problem is its a huge antimatter hog. It never has enough to use all of its abilities at once, and even using just one it will tend to run out before other caps until you get it to level 6 and its ultimate, finest hour. This is a decent ability, and if you ever do build a Kol its to get Flak Burst, to try and deal with tons of enemy strikecraft late game. By then though bomber swarms usually have no trouble dealing with a Kol, so its very much a last ditch options.

Its other two abilities, Gauss Rail Gun (GRG) and Adaptive Force Field, are seriously weak, other abilities outclass them in every way, and they only affect one target, making them near useless late game, and early game the Sova carrier is better than the Kol (and probably every other cap) in every way save perhaps endurance, but its a carrier and doesn't need to be in close.

Now it does combo nicely with the Dunov battlecruiser's ultimate, which reduces antimatter costs, and if you also have finest hour the Kol can fire enough GRGs to actually make a difference. But you'd as much damage to an unlimited number of targets with the Marza's missile barrage, and one level 6 capitalship is far easier to get than two. And for the record if you really need a tough to destroy tank, the Corsev is a much better choice as its defensive ability is passive, it can capture enemy ships and do Area of Effect damage (AoE).

 

As for what actually took you out, its hard to say without even knowing what race you're playing against, but there are a handful of special abilities that are quite capable of doing that, especially if you aren't aware what units have them and how to avoid them. Its also possible you overestimated your strength or underestimated theirs, new players tend to do that. It does no good to build an invincible fleet if you can't recognize a death trap when you see it.

Reply #6 Top

Best things for dealing with pirates:

  • Don't play the bounty game, it will only hurt you in the long run...the size of pirate raids is based of the amount of bounty, so adding more bounty yourself just causes your opponent to add more which creates a vicious cycle leading to large pirate raids...you are better off losing the bidding by simply having your opponent place 250 credits than by placing 2000 credits yourself and your opponent placing 2250...also, keep in mind that even if you do win the bidding, the bounty on you doesn't magically dissappear...odds are your opponent will lose ships/structures/planets to the pirates, reducing the bounty on them...you, however, won't have such reductions, so when the next bidding starts, your opponent is already way ahead of you in the bidding war...bottomline, don't play the bounty game...
  • Playing TEC rebels and getting truce amongst rogues solves the problem instantly....if you don't think you can get that before the first pirate raid (or you are TEC loyalists), build a corsev and use demolition team...you'll sacrifice some units but it's much better than trying to kill the raid via raw DPS...
  • Build a trade port with a nearby repair bay at every planet...seriously, the pirate ships will go crazy chasing your trade ships and will probably ignore everything else in the gravity well...doesn't always work, but it works a lot...you'll still have to kill any pillagers (the pirate siege ships) but that's a lot easier than having to deal with the entire raid...

If someone already said all this stuff sorry but it's late and I don't feel like reading the entire thread...the simple solution is turn off pirates...the equally simple solution is play TEC rebels or build trade ports....

Reply #7 Top

"As for what actually took you out, its hard to say without even knowing what race you're playing against, but there are a handful of special abilities that are quite capable of doing that, especially if you aren't aware what units have them and how to avoid them. Its also possible you overestimated your strength or underestimated theirs, new players tend to do that. It does no good to build an invincible fleet if you can't recognize a death trap when you see it."

here is my "invicible" fleet :

(orange player = TEC Loyalist - 1x lvl 10 titan + 5x lvl 3 Kols + ...)

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596977147756423319/D35385A2EF3DA9321459CFDEC88E79936F974F55/

here my fleet vs ennemy fleet :

(ennemy green AI = niteim rebels - 1x lvl 10 titan + 1x lvl 6 sova + 1x lvl 1 Marza + 1x lvl 3 Akkan + starbase + ...) 

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/596977147756420394/DF4663ACDBC4EC450081402FBCC2AD85F2D4D056/

here is the outcome of combat :(   :

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/596977147756418554/024E73DB5E49CC764544D75EE7E85EE778C722E1/


Reply #8 Top

Quoting davidoux, reply 8
here is my "invicible" fleet :
End of davidoux's quote

 

 

Yeah way to many Kols. No wonder you lost.

 

Not enough LRF or HCs.

No Flak at all!

No scouts for detecting mines.

Not even a 1 Celio.

 

You split your fleet while you attacked... your Kols were doing what during that fight? The few Hoskis you had were chasing the Kols.

Your bombers were not attacking anything in their fleet.

Im sure your fleet ran into mines also b/c you had no scouts to detect them.

 

 

Seems you didnt win b/c you are still learning the game. Kols are nothing with our proper support. You built a Cap ship heavy fleet, then split your fleet.

 

If you feel strongly about using the Kol, dont let it run off all LEEEEERRRRROOOOOYYYYY JJJEEEENNNNKKKKKINNNNSSSS like.

 

 

Reply #9 Top
Quoting -Ue_Carbon, reply 9


Yeah way to many Kols. No wonder you lost.

Not enough LRF or HCs.
No Flak at all!
No scouts for detecting mines.
Not even a 1 Celio.

End of -Ue_Carbon's quote

Can you pls explain the logic behind these needs (ok, detecting mines is obvious but not flak for instance ...)

Quoting -Ue_Carbon, reply 9
You split your fleet while you attacked... your Kols were doing what during that fight? The few Hoskis you had were chasing the Kols.

Your bombers were not attacking anything in their fleet.

End of -Ue_Carbon's quote

I always let the combat autoresolve until now

 

 

Reply #10 Top

Quoting davidoux, reply 10
I always let the combat autoresolve until now

End of davidoux's quote

The unit AI will do alright in clear gravity wells, like when fighting militia or at asteroid belts. In heavily fortified gravity wells however don't trust it. On or two mines can take out all of your corvettes and do a lot of damage to other frigates. You had the right idea of using bombers to attack the starbases from across the gravity well, and in an attack like this I usually put my entire fleet to "Local Area" or "Hold Position" engagement radius and pointlessly get into range of defenses I can avoid and destroy from out of range.