Wow, you should probably make a thread about this. Then they'll be sure to do something about it.

Carriers/strikecraft

Illums also take an extra lab to build, cost 30% more than TEC LRMs, can't focus fire, and don't use phase missiles that can bypass shields.

In other words, each LRM has pros and cons - by the time 50 illuminators are out, are you really still using a fighting force of 100 corvettes to attack them?

It's good to bring up but too early to call for the nerfbat before taking more into account.

What wins for cost in a fight between TEC LRMs and Illums? How does the battle turn out if it's Vasari corvettes vs. Illums in your above examples (more health, shields, damage)? Is it just a TEC corvette problem?

In a real game you are going to have 100 corvettes well before 50 illuminators come out - so unless he is hiding 50 illums on you it's sort of a moot point in my mind. 50 illuminators is like a mid game sort of force where corvettes have lost a lot of their usefulness anyway - as long as a mix of fighters and LRMs can deal with them, that seems like a more useful counter for more things anyway.

Carriers are a lot harder to get that early than illuminators are...it's not just about labs, it's about instant firepower (which carriers don't give) and construction times...illuminators also have instant mobility, while carriers are useless if you start jumping them immediately after they are built...fighters also are extremely easy to counter with flak, and you can bet any Advent player worth a damn is fielding both illuminators and defense vessels if they see you trying to amass carriers...

75 LRMs vs. 50 Illuminators

LRMs win with heavy losses (~22 survivors, or 29.3%, even worse than the corvettes though that's hardly surprising)...

75 Vasari Corvettes vs. 50 Illuminators

Illuminators win with varying degrees of success, hardly surprising considering how awful Vasari ships generally are....

You can't counter Illuminators with flak, and a small portion of defense vessels will completely negate the threat of corvettes....trying to outdo the illuminators by simply building your own LRFs really isn't going to work too well either unless you have more ships or much better AoEs...as stated earlier, fighters again aren't really going to be too useful because they are hard countered by flak and aren't viable that early anyway...

Doesn't matter whether you are TEC or Vasari, you can't counter illuminators...sure, you can beat them if you have more ships, better AoEs, or are pushing the Advent player back and winning huge over them before they get the chance to amass illuminators...but once the illuminators are amassed you only have 2 options: build HCs, or simply try to be bigger and badder....

The first option is hardly viable that early, especially when you consider the construction times for HCs...the 2nd option isn't really an option and certainly isn't a counter...

Another Test:

75 LRMs vs. 75 Vasari Corvettes

Corvettes win (~44 survivors, or 59%, which is much better than any corvette against the illuminators)

Since LRMs are generally considered the best LRF, and Vasari corvettes are generally considered the worst, I would argue that the survival rate would be even higher should you substitute in kanraks or TEC corvettes...

Bottomline:

1. LRMs and kanraks get shredded by corvettes of any type, but illuminators don't, and in some cases can even beat corvettes...
2. In general, corvettes do not counter LRFs as well as they probably should...most hard counters yield surival rates around 70%-90% for the counter unit, but barring illuminators, corvettes are looking at the 50%-70% region...
3. There is no viable counter against illuminators that early in the game, and Advent already have best LF and best flak (not sure about corvette, but it certainly isn't the worst)...

I would argue this is a problem with corvettes in general, but it is most apparent when you throw them against illluminators...I believe the core of the issue is that LRFs and their anti-medium weaponry perform too well against very light armor...I am unsure of the exact value to put here, but a reduction from 1.00 to .90 or .80 would be a much needed improvement...even going as low as .75 may be necessary, I don't know at this point....

Because of their higher tier and lack of FFing ability, I'm fine with illuminators being better against corvettes than the other LRFs...but this is just wrong, illuminators should not be doing this well against a unit that allegedley counters them....

Would you rather me complain about jumping SBs, or SttC, or AL having no cool toys, or useless caps like the kol?  Or maybe I could try to tell them that titans are still ridiculous and that they should seriously reconsider their entire philosophy behind this expansion...

Oops, wait, all those things have already been beaten to a bloody pulp that legend says was once a horse...

Your definition of immune is quite strange.

I really dont think that nerfing UNDERUSED ship's dmg against an OVERUSED ship type (any game today starts with packs of corvettes flying around) is such a good idea,or that it should be a concern at all.

Illums are decent against corvettes on their own,and even better with flak support?fine.deal with it.

Wait..starbases can jump!?

(Sorry--I couldn't help it.)

Either that, or this is the best troll post ever.

First of, let me say that when you still use corvettes by the time the enemy is having fifty!   illuminators, you deserve to get your ass handed.

Lets see what all those ships cost:

40 Iluminators

- Require 3 Temples of Hostility:

- Credit Cost: 15200

- Metal Cost: 2400

- Crystal Cost:2200

- Supply Cost: 240

- Minimum Build time: 1040 seconds, assuming you have always enough resources to keep the factory running

80 TEC corvettes

- Require 1 Civic Research Center

- Credit Cost: 15200

- Metal Cost: 1600

- Crystal Cost: 800

- Supply Cost: 240

- Minimum Build time: 1120 seconds

Comparsion:

2 more labs

Credit Cost: 0

Metall Cost: 800

Crystal Cost: 1400

Supply: 0

Minimum Build time: 80

You need 80 seconds more build time but you save yourself 800 metal and 1400 crystal. Sounds like a good deal for me.

Then you said that at least 25 corvettes survived that battle...

So your actually only lost:

- Credits: 10450

- Metal: 1100

- Crystal: 550

- Minimum Rebuild time: 770 seconds

That means that the Advent in total lost

- 4750 credits

- 1300 metal

- 1650 crystal

more than you.

Now tell me, why should the Advent again build illuminators ? Doesnt make sense, he takes heavier losses than you and btw, you are TEC. By the time he has 40 illuminators you should have a better economy than him. That means that even if you two would have had lost the same amount of resources, you would still win!

Now for the second example: The calculation is the same, although I agree it is a bit more favorable for the Advent here. But that is only naturally so, as with more illuminators even the side beams gets more and more deadly.

The very design of the ship and the nature of its weapon make ot do awesome against many not durable targets, there is nothing you can do about that without nerfing it into oblivion.

There are 3 LRM frigates in the game, but they all different and so they have different roles.Thats what factional diversity is all about.

TEC - Long range artillery--> high damage against single targets

Vasari - Assassination of high priority targets, thanks to phase"what shields?" missiles. Higher rate of fire so better than Javelis against many durable targets

Advent - long range combat support at the cost of concentrated firepower. Illums are great against a fleet of LRMs, but terrible against a fleet of Kodiaks.... they just need to long to do any reasonable damage.

Of course the Javelis does suck against Corvettes... the thing fires what...? a missile barrage all 5 seconds? Of course that is  terrible against a swarm of fast moving ships.

But, that is not the point of the Javelis. The point of the Javelis is "cheap firepower" at extreme range. A role is fills excellent, far better than the illuminator. And it much cheaper, meaning you can have many more of them. 

For those 50 illuminators you could have had 70 Javelis LRMs.

In some situations, 50 illuminators are going to be more useful, in other situation 70 Javelis are going to be much better.

Try to face an enemy titan with 50 illuminators.... then face it again with 70 Javelis... note who does more damage.

The Javelis has worthless shields and armor, but it should never enter the fray. Illuminators on the other hand need to be in the heart of battle, otherwise you cant use all 3 beams, severly reducing the total effective firepower.

BTW, the Javelis is more cost effective than the illuminator both in durabilty for money and damage for money. And thats under the assumption that the Illuminator will always use its 3 beams. 

By the time your enemy fields 30 illuminators, Titans are not far away. And that is something we have to consider as well.

This is not Diplomacy anymore. In the average rebellion game an Advent is going to face hostile Titans, capital ship heavy Vasari Loyalists fleets, phase jumping Vasari starbases (and I speak about a balanced version of the Orkulus Rex, mind you) and a possible digged in TEC Loyalist with a starbase and Militia upgrades.

To deal with all those things, you need a lot of firepower. Focus firepower. Focus firepower that illuminators can not deliver, unless you ridiculously outnumber your enemy, in which case you have already won. So that leaves Destras... but you cant have those in numbers until quite late in the game. So that leads to and you all know the answer... bomber spam. 

Advent need a working other strategy for med - late game other than bomber spam. Advent strikecraft being overall the most powerful, the other option needs to be somewhat appealing. Bomber spam has certain difficulties against many light ships... and thats were the illuminators come in. Think about it, for every 3 illuminators you have to worry about one Aeria and 3 bomber wings less.

If playing Advent = bomber spam that is not good, neither for the race nor for the fun of the game.

If we are going to change the illuminator we have to be very carefull. The units is far less usefull overall in Rebellion than in Diplomacy with Titans and similar new stuff flying arround.

Corvettes are an early game harassment unit. They are best countered by having more corvettes than the enemy. (Flak is a bit more cost efficient, but flak cannot lead a counter offense, corvettes can). When titans enter the field, mass corvettes are quickly outmatched against one of the many AoE abilities that the average fleet is fielding by then. A few corvettes for their special crippling damage perhaps, but thats about it.

And please get down from your hate for supression aura. . Yes, it is a powerful ability, but so are many others in this game. And a Coronata with it is far from invulnerable, even with 100 illuminators at its side.

On a final note, lets not forget that the illuminator has to have a place in the Advent Rebels gameplay, too.

As I did mention above, illuminators have a somewhat different mission profile than the Javelis or the Kanrak. I am against a unit that does everything well, too, but nerving the illuminator to much will in fact increase bomber spam, not lower it. You just dont have that many good options as Advent and all of those compete with the very powerful bomber spam.

The problem with flak is that it is absoluty terrible against anything else. The moment the corvette spam is over those flak frigates are wasted money, especially for advent who can have fighter superiority at any time.

I agree, less strike craft in the average game would be a welcome change. However to make that happen we have to make the alternatives more appealing for the advent players. Right now bomber spam is the easiest and most cost effective way to deal with any hard target as well as with lower numbers of lighter ships.

If you weaken the illuminator to much, bomber spam will be more appealing than before.

An Aeria drone host with 1 of 3 squadrons has an immediatly firepower of 21.... ok... bombers dont fire so often so lets maybe half that... 10,5.... a single illuminator does arround 5,6 damage per single beam... and by the time you have more illuminators all 3 squadrons are there... it doesnt take that long afterall. Besides, if you send your illuminators into battle 1 by 1... their are going to do quite poorly... just like any other ship.

The main reason that speaks against early carrier spam is the hefty price tag... you cannot afford the numbers of carriers needed to stand against all those light ships, in terms of pure damage.... carriers are better than illuminators.

I recently did an total comparsion of all carrier cruisers and their strikecraft in the game; (going to post the full details with shiny graphics about it the next week or so) but I can already tell you today with absolute certainty that if you go full carriers and the Advent goes full carrier... you will loose that arms race.

LRMs by design have major trouble against illuminators... just like illuminators by design have major trouble against singular hard targets. They have to be used differently because of that.

Defense vessels kill your corvettes? Well, for 3 defense vessels more he will have 2 illuminators less... and that means even less focus firing capacity for him.

You are TEC.... Trader Emergency Coalition.... make use of it. Look above... Javelis offer more bang and more armor for your money... and with TEC at this stage of the game you are supposed to have more money than the Advent. Advent economy is lackluster... believe me...

If he can field 50 illuminators you should be capable of fielding 90 - 100 Javelis. Sure, it is going to be brutal and you are going to take heavy losses... but so is he... and that is what counts for TEC. If you loose 90 % of your fleet.... well that not a problem... because you got the economy the rebuild them faster and more often than he can rebuild his 100 % lost fleet.

Most TEC ships are very robust for their price and they have the best armor upgrades readily available. Use them. Advent ships are flimsy glass cannons, that is why they so desperately try to kill you before you penetrate their shields. That is why they have the most powerful fleet synergy... because without it they cant hold their own in a straight fight.

BTW, the Javelis has a nice AoE attack... you could use that to deal with illums, too.

One possible problem could be that the missiles fly comparable slow.... if the enemy is quick he can jump out of range.... before they impact.

Blue text is painful...  

EDIT: for some reason it is less painful on my external monitor..  Weird..

Heh..which happens to be Illuminators.

This has inspired me to begin a new Sins bumper sticker section:

• "Illuminators Happen."
• "Don't make me open a can of corvettes on you!"
• "If starbases were meant to fly, Advent and TEC would too."
• "Don't be a traitor--say, "NO!" to Vasari Rebels!"
• "My other car is a TITAN!"
• "Cobalts...We might not have much armor but our firepower sucks too."
• "Corvettes...the flying muscle cars of the future."