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andysonofbob
andysonofbob
Join Date 12/2011
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Please add 3D support - only basic changes needed for excellent 3D experience

August 20, 2012 3:13:40 PM from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Hi

95% of this game is rendered perfectly for those playing in 3D.  Sadly elements like unit icons, gravity well lines and phase lanes are rendered in 2D.  Would it be possible for Stardock to render 3D unit icons etc instead of 2D?  Being basic icons or simple vectors (gravity wells - circle, phase lanes - line etc) rendering them in 3D should not affect FPS at all (even on the weakest rig) but would render Sins an awesome 3D experience.

Annoying thing is, many people who game in 3D will 'fix' or edit out 3D anomolies.  See Helix Fix for fixing 3D in DX9 games.  Sadly Sins is the only DX9 game I have that crashes when I apply Helix's debug file.  If the file worked I would be able to find the pixel or vertex shader responsible for the 2D icon and push it into a fixed 3D position (the default zoom position of the icon's ship). 

Imagine Sins in 3D!  3D space battles!

I would love any feedback on this.

Thanks

Andy

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andysonofbob
harpo99999
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #1 August 20, 2012 7:05:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I DO play rebellion in 3d using tridef and the sins diplomacy profile, and have also played dip & entrenchment using the tridef system.

harpo

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andysonofbob
Lavo_2
Join Date 05/2010
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Reply #2 August 20, 2012 7:55:54 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Would you mind expanding on that harpo? I'm very intrigued.

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andysonofbob
Ibnpatuta
Join Date 09/2011
+5
Reply #3 August 20, 2012 8:24:37 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes, I would like to know how Sins is in 3D, harpo. Do you play Rebellion in 3D too? Is it only a minor impact or does it look much different? Is it awesome?

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andysonofbob
andysonofbob
Join Date 12/2011
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Reply #4 August 21, 2012 3:33:55 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

@ Harpo

How has TriDef dealt with the 2D unit icons etc?  Is there any chance you could post a stereoscopic image for me to peruse?  I use 3D Vision so I am not all that clued up regarding Tridef but I have a feeling Helix's mod acts a bit like Tridef's profile where it selects certain shaders and either disables them or 'fixes' them.

 

@ Those curious about gaming in 3D

When it works, which is nearly always does, it is astonishing.  Imagine using an iPad screen as your eyes.  Fun for a while but after an hour or two it would get annoying viewing the world in 2D.  Use your eyes instead of the iPad's camera and you can see the world in 3D.  That what gaming is like.

Where cinema is roughly 40% popout and 60% depth, which is gimmicky, games are 5% popout and 95% depth.  You are looking out onto a 3D world.  3D holds more information and you notice a lot of details in 3D which you don't in 2D and you for some reason you get a greater sense of mass for objects.  Projectiles feel weighter and more devastating.  Also, unike movies, games are 3D by their very nature.  OK Peggles might not be

The down side?  Not all aspects of a game are rendered in 3D and sometimes effects are rendered in 2D.  Total War games used to look awesome in 3D but now they don't because CA opted to use 2D effects for things like fire and explosions in Shogun 2.  I think this is a backward step as I could tell by screenshots 2D effects from 3D as they look like sprites.  Also serious hit on FPS as you are rendering two scenes for every one.  2D gamers need not worry because it will not effect them - the game doesn't know it is playing in 3D as it is done at a driver level.

 

@ Stardock

Rendering unit icons in 3D instead of 2D is exactly what Paradox Interactive's did with Mount and Blade.  M&B used 2D icons but switched to 3D for M&B Warband.  3D cards are good at rendering 3D.  Rendering a simple object like words or vectors in 3D will have minimal effect on FPS.  I would be suprised if it was as high as 1/1000 of one FPS.

 

Thanks

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andysonofbob
Ibnpatuta
Join Date 09/2011
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Reply #5 August 21, 2012 11:20:45 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well thank you andysonofbob for explaining all of that. I can now see how 3D would be awesome for Sins. However, as Rebellion has already been released, I doubt the devs would want to undertake something as big as making a 2D game 3D compatible.

You are free to ask, though. I would certainly be happy if it happened.

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andysonofbob
Democrab
Join Date 03/2011
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Reply #6 August 21, 2012 3:56:53 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

IMO, they should work with nVidia on it for Sins 2 (If that ever actually is made)

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andysonofbob
andysonofbob
Join Date 12/2011
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Reply #7 August 21, 2012 4:20:58 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Democrab,
reply 7
IMO, they should work with nVidia on it for Sins 2 (If that ever actually is made)

 

That would be cool but tbh, as I mentioned above, Paradox Interactive had very similar issues with Mount & Blade but resolved it with M&B Warband which is arguably a standalone expansion.  Paradox Interactive just 'did it', with very little fuss.  I am hoping it would be equally straightforward for Stardock to do the same.  Ever the optimist!

 

[email protected] is the dude Stardock need to speak to.  He is really good and he is nvidia's 3D Vision product manager.

 

They could also talk to neil at http://www.mtbs3d.com/  These dudes are independent but want to standardise 3D.

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andysonofbob
harpo99999
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #8 August 21, 2012 7:27:42 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

the icons/ui are rendered in 2d, but the actual ships, structures, planets etc are given the displacement effect on my aoc passive 3d screens. regarding a pic of the effect, no I can not as I do NOT have a camera that supports the passive 3d effect OR even active 3d effects.

and in my opinion the 3d is nice, but only slightly helps with the visualisation of the battles, grav wells, and I also find sins is slightly easier to play when I do NOT use the tridef3d system, but in first person games it does help more.

harpo

 

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andysonofbob
andysonofbob
Join Date 12/2011
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Reply #9 August 22, 2012 3:09:41 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Ahh thanks Harpo

Sins on Tridef sounds exactly the same as 3D Vision: Starfield and nebula, ships, structures, weapons and effects and phase lane travel effect all perfect but unit icons, circle showing grav well and line denoting phase lane on HUD in 2D.

 

What is really gutting, Helix's debug program, a d3d9.dll file which you insert in the folder with the game's executable file enables you to isolate the shader(s) which don't render properly in 3D or 2D objects like the HUD elements.  It generates a .txt file for each shader you isololate.  Once you have the problematic shader's text file (usually between 2-5 per game, unless really dodgy) you can edit the file to assign a 3D depth value to it or simply remove the shader if too problematic.

Now assigning a 3D depth to a 2D shader will mean it will stay at a fixed depth; it is not going to have a dynamic depth like the unit it is for.  It is very much a 'duct-tape job'.  But, because Sins' default zoom depth is actually fairly zoomed out, even a fixed depth HUD, positioned slightly in front of the icon's unit would do the job nicely.  Of course the grav well circle and phase line on the HUD would still look out of place but they would not be as bad having depth.

 

Egosoft's X3 had exactly the same problem and was solved as above.

 

@Stardock

Such an easy problem to fix! If only the Helix mod worked on Sins Rebellion...  It is such a small handful of games that crash when you apply the debug file that it is gutting Sins: Rebellion is one of them.   For more information on the Helix mod go here.

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