People complain about phase missiles, which I agree are powerful and allow you to more effectively pick off capital ships, but that's the kind of thing I signed up for when I selected this faction. I feel that it hurts a lot more when I lose Vasari ships than when I've played with other factions, and I feel it when I play against the other factions. When a TEC player starts spamming stuff me, he may take careless losses by blind assaults, but that's the kind of guerrilla stuff that Vasari are good at. If they couldn't do it, they'd have no momentum; they'd just have Marzas, massed corvettes and Cobalts running amok. [/quote]
You are wrong.
1. The phase missiles research is the most cost effective and most powerfull weapon upgrade in the game. It makes all other weapon upgrades look downright worthless. Most people dont research weapon upgrades until quite late in the game in MP.... but phase missiles are usually researched quite quickly... because they are worth every single credit.
Your feeling about Vasari being hurt most by ship losses is incorrect too:
Economic power rating:
1. TEC
2. Vasari
3. Advent
Military late game power rating:
1. Vasari
2. Advent
3. TEC
And this is one of the many reasons the Vasari faction is generally overpowered, even if you leave aside their most OP toys.
Vasari have the second best economy... but a military that is quite capable of decimating both TEC and Advent fleets with ease.
TEC may have a slightly better economy.... but TEC is going to face heavy casualties and so they need every single credit more they have.
Advent stood no change in late game against Vasari..... not only the Vasari fleet is considerable more powerfull (mostly due to phase missiles) but the Vasari can actually easily trade 150 ships of his against 100 advent ships and still win the war.
Because Vasari economy is a lot better than Advent economy.
As compensation for their poor economy Advent would need to inflict a loss ratio of 2 to 1 against the Vasari... (2 Vasari ships for 1 Advent ship).
The reality right now is 3 to 1...... for the Vasari (again, mostly due to Phase missiles)
Advent relying heavily on synergies cannot afford to have their capital ships and titan being phase missiled snipped within 30 seconds.... and that is the first battle.... in the next your at best level 4 advent capitalships are facing Vasari level 5 and 6 capital ships..... enjoy your execution.
For long term balancing Vasari need to either loose their 1. place and military to the Advent or have to have their economy reduced to rank 3.
It should be like:
Military ranking:
1. Advent
2. Vasari
3. TEC
Economic ranking:
1. TEC
2. Vasari
3. Advent
If this is not done, the faction will stay inherently overpowered... an faction having the second best economy and the best military will always prevail against a faction that has the worst economy and the second best military.
A major phase missile nerf would go a long way into making the Vasari military second to the Advent.
I bet that the Advents' phase missile weakness can be countered, not directly, but with alternative tactics. If I am correct, Vasari tactics revolve around mobility, desperation, guerrilla tactics, and are most effective when the enemy is careless. Obviously being mobile and having powerful defenses, they have a lot of time to destroy a planet before actually being needed elsewhere, especially in the late game. I'm not going to argue and say that there is an easy way to beat Vasari in the late, but if I have to dedicate my limited and currently immobile Vasari fleet to tasks that I can't run away from, and I can't set up, I'm going to be in trouble later on. Playing as Vasari, I've never felt that my entire fleet could be powerful enough to defend two sides of my empire; Plus, with strength in numbers being the general rule with any RTS, I can't really afford to split my precious fleet.[/quote]
Actually it can only be soft countered, which means that instead of dying within 10 seconds your ships die within 13 seconds... not very helpful.
Much more importantly.... phase missiles CANNOT be countered COST EFFECTIVE. An Advent would need 2 or 3 times the fleet to stand a reasonable chance.... just regretable that Advent economy is easily 30 % below Vasari economy.
TEC vs Advent is more balanced, because while TEC takes heavy losses, they can afford a loss ratio of 2 : 1.... Advent on the other hand cannot afford even 1 : 1 losses against a Vasari.
For Advent being competive against Vasari they need to destroy 2 Vasari ships for one Advent ship.... otherwise the superior Vasari economy alone in time will simple steamroll them.
The Vasari fleet can outrun any other faction fleet with ease... with or without Kostura. Add phase stabilizers and the Vasari fleet can be ANYWHERE on the map within 30 seconds.... you can nuke the enemy capital and then strip it while his 8 jump away fleet (protecting his borders) is desperatly trying to catch you.
When his fleet finally arrives the planet is long gone and the Vasari is free to run... or to destroy your fleet at will.
The Orkulus starbase with a bit of support can easily hold the line while your fleet is ravaging the enemies empire. And if it really gets nasty.... a quick jump back will crush any and all assaults. 2 minutes later the enemy fleet is destroyed.... and your fleet returns to ravage their planets.... ragequitting usually at latest happens here.
Vasari ships are mostly supporting themselves, meaning that a fleet split wont hurt them half as much as the Advent.
The disadvantage the Vasari have with less efficient combat units only lasts very early game, and the strong Vasari capitalships and early access to starbases largely cancel out that weakness.
QFT
The Vasari have a colony capitalship too you know. And the Jarrasul is arguable better in combat than the other two races'.
Actually it is. Nano Disassembler FTW..... Progentitor shield restore doesnt help much in early game where it counts and later it is worthless against phase missiles. The Akkan is a quite durable ship and Ion bolt is nice.... but it pales in comparsion to Nano Disassembler and the mighty Kortul.
I get that starbases are powerful and that they take up no fleet supply. Trouble is, wouldn't that reliance on Starbases then become a weakness in itself? TEC has Orgovs and bombers while Advent just have even more bombers. Plus, the weakening after the phase jump combined with your home advantage and the fact that if it has to retreat, you have an even greater opportunity to take down the enemy planet could potentially put the battle in your favor. Plus, you can't support a starbase with another starbase. If they get it that early anyway, you know that they've invested heavily into this particular strategy and you can set about de-railing it. Without sufficient fleet, they'll have hardly anything capable of countering bombers, and with all of the starbase investments, their military or economy, or both, will be weak, aside from the low fleet cost.
The problem is that an Orky even with only a meager supporting fleet is quite capable of destroying anything you can field at this stage of the game. In any case, any possible counter will easily cost 2 or 3 times the resources of the orkolus... making this a skill less and very cheap tactic as the is very little risk for a possible huge reward.
Bombers while dominating the late game are very poor against early game ships, so somebody investing to much in expensive carriers can just be steamrolled without Orky help.
[quote who="GoaFan77" reply="3" id="3326177"]Yes, there is a small window where they are vulnerable. But most games in Sins are team games, if a VR player can rely on his allies to cover him, it can be impossible to prevent them from getting starbase mobilization online. Not to mention that his friends have fleets to support the starbases with.
From FFA experience I have to say that if he happens to be just a bit away from the main action even a single Vasari player can become a murderous threat that you need 2 people of similar skill level just to contain and 3 to actually defeat. Actually playing Vasari in FFA games often tends to lead to your untimely demise as nobody of the other players have any intention to allow to to survive until late game.
[quote who="Mr_Book" reply="22" id="3327480"]
Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 19
Quoting Mr_Book, reply 17but if it's a nerf like what they did to SttC
Strip to the core is balanced now. I fail to see why you think it is over nerfed. In it's current state it is still one of the most powerful Rebellion features added to the game. It's no longer abused though which is a good thing.
In theory, perhaps. In practice, it is never used in skilled 5s games. Ever. I call that nerfed into disuse.
