Mate, i think you missed the point. We are discussing early game orky rushes under the above conditions. You cap ship doesnt not have enough time to lvl past 1 unless you buy a level.
An early game Orky rush is in no way comparable to the conditions extensively tested above...your recent post may be about early Orky rushing, but the vast majority of this thread is not....
The claim being made is that disciples are severely inferior to cobalts when it comes to popping Orkies...this claim has been made both in general and specifically to early game rushing...the above tests take into account the firepower and resiliency of those LFs on a per fleet supply basis and thus disprove the claim on a general basis...it is true that Sinkillr has conflicting results, however both me and Zombie have noted that more disciples are being shot at in his tests than cobalts, a huge difference which explains the discrepancy he found...
As for a realistic early game test, that has already been done...a quote (thread) from a skilled player that did exactly what you have asked (a true early game test):
Yes, it was 3 jumps, but two of the jumps are almost right angles and don't take long to traverse. The final time I was showing Sagewon he could defend from me, I sent the Migrator immediately and it was arriving just as the technology was finishing being researched. 2 jumps or 3, it was near the limit of how soon an Orky could be built.
The other thing I demonstrated was that there is quite a margin of safety...you don't HAVE to be completely prepared as long as you react right away and start building and sending ships. When I was defending the first time, I didn't even start building a second frig factory until after the Orky was being built. Sagewon again had an easier time than I did, because in his paranoia he amassed more ships sooner, while I pretended I didn't know an Orky attack was coming. Both of us had no problem fighting it off. Ironically, the only person who might have trouble fighting off an Orky with frigates is another Vasari if they haven't committed to frigates and didn't research for their own Orky....but as for Advent and TEC, they can just spit out Disciples / Cobalts.
Anyhow, that is why I wanted to see a replay of someone fighting the "impossible" Orky rush. If this becomes an issue in 5's, the only possible thing I can think of is that the games early speed boost via Alloy disproportionally affects build times and not attack times, making an Orky build faster than it should. This is just wild speculation on my part, because I've never directly encountered what "all skilled players know", that it is impossible to stop an Orky rush as Advent.
For those who care, a whole discussion about early Orky rushes exists on the last 2 pages of the thread linked above...after very good testing, two skilled players that have been here a long time (SageWon and Cykur) determined that TEC and Advent are equally capable in stopping an early game Orky rush...SageWon even initially thought like you do, that Advent were at a disadvantage, but when he actually tested it, the facts changed his mind....by the way, SageWon and Cykur did their tests before the default start included 2 frigate factories...if they could stop it then as Advent, it should be even easier now....
Jingly, considering this thread and the "confused sperm thread", I can say this about you:
You continually beg the question, constantly asking the other side to provide proof even though you yourself show none...when proof and analysis is provided that doesn't jive with your notions, you dismiss it...
You claim all skilled players agree with you and that "everyone" seems to know what you "know", but this "skilled consensus" clearly does not exist...Cykur, SageWon, and myself attest that your claim is a myth...multiple skilled players have commented on this thread, yet only you and Sinkillr have actually come forward in support of your claim...where is Doci and Grimm, who you allege have enlightened you with this secret? If everyone "knows" what you say is true, why are most of the skilled players in this thread (Ekko, Greg, Ares) choosing to withhold evidence and opinions in support of your claim?
You have attacked Zombie's and my credibility because we are modders, using that to imply we are inherently unskilled or unknowledgeable....you criticize us for being arrogant, yet in both threads we have put forth proof of our claims...if we are arrogant for believing our evidence and finding faults in yours (or rather Sinkillr's, since you yourself have none), then you are equally arrogant for accepting Sinkillr's evidence while dismissing our own...
At best, this is simply a controversial topic with evidence (and the testimony of skilled players) on both sides....at worse, it's a myth recently purported by 2 players, only one of which actually takes the time to provide evidence other than hearsay....either way, there is no consensus in support of your claim, and these discussions are quite tiring...you've tried to convince me that disciples shoot sideways, that hull technologies don't affect frigates, and that cobalts somehow move differently than other frigates....Sinkillr has provided evidence of his claims and I can respect and appreciate that....I however have no patience for your games, Jingly...
