Exactly. I hear charges of poor treatment of artists without any supporting evidence. 

As for AP67, for someone who's downloaded so much from the site, I'd think you would feel some sort of...well responsibility to give something back. Just because you've bought software from Stardock doesn't even begin to cover the costs of running this site.

I'm afraid that ultimately it's people like you who download over half a gig of data without contributing anything that will eventually require that users who download more than say 250 megs will have to subscribe to the site even if they've purchased software.

Normally, people who download that large amount of content from the site try to contribute something back. In your case, you were submitting skins and themes and walls apparently. Now you say you've deleted them. Over what?

Who's the one taking from the community and not giving back? Just remember this day when the time comes when unlimited downloads come to an end for non-WC subscribers.

While you may think dA is a panacea, perhaps you should go and look at how many downlaods the most popular deviations have there of all time. Here, download counts on a skin can reach the hundreds of thousands.

Put another way, "stuff" on this site gets downloaded a lot. A WHOLE LOT.  Even drek gets download a lot for some reason. Yesterday's most popular wallpaper here got about 600 downloads. Can you find a wallpaper on dA with half that per day? A quarter that? A fifth of that? That's because dA is an art community. It'd designed for artists to put up their work (of all kinds) for personal use and sharing with friends.  WinCustomize is a skin site designed to distribute skins, themes, and wallpapers to users on a massive scale.

That's why we have to take care on what gets up there. You've downloaded going on a gigabyte here. How much do youthink you've dl'd from dA? I doubt even a quarter that amount. Why is that?

A community works by give and take. You've used this site a great deal. You haven't subscribed to it though.  And what things you did contribute you say you've deleted.  And yet those who feel like you do think of WinCustomize as some sort of restraunt and yourselves as customers of the site. 

A user with a WinCustomize subscripotion is a customer of the site.

A user who submits artwork and skins and themes isn't necessarily customer but is a contributing member of the community.

A user who helps out in the forums isn't necessarily a customer but is also a contributing member of the community.

You're not a WC subscriber, you have no wrok here, and I don't see you helping out on the forums but you have downloaded going on a gigabyte of stuff. So what niche would you classify yourself as being in?

David, in part, in the past that I've seen, some people have taken umbrage at comments made by other posters (I'm not talking Admins, mods or Brad, just other members of the site) and then took it as representative of the site and evidently site management. (I base this on their comments indicating that they did.) As above, I believe someone responded in such a manner to Fuzzy's comments. Although as far as I'm aware, Fuzzy is not part of the "management team" at WC. Thus the origin of some "WC is disrespectful to artists" comments. (Again, I'm only referencing such comments made in response to other comments on the messageboard. Not talking about other issues that may be related to moderation, download counts, ratings, etc.)

Also, in fairness, while I don't particularly agree with Lady A and Apocalypse, I think they've done some rather fine work. So I don't think people making negative assumptions/comments about their work or their talents, without having seen it, is either fair or accurate.

At the same time, however, I don't see the point of leaving a place and then coming back and saying another place rules yay, yay, yay like cheerleaders of the opposing team at a high school football game. I suspect if people went to DA or other places and said how better WC is, etc, that would not be particularly appreciated or considered good form. JMO, again.

sig101...possibly you have a point there...that the source of the 'bashing' is from other members rather than actual admins reflecting some site 'policy'.

Admins will naturally find it comparatively difficult to balance the stifling of free opinion against the alleged abuse/attack upon another individual.

We tell them to 'lift their game' and are known to remove 'extreme' comment/s ....and obviously permanently remove those who are hell-bent on disruption...[the brainless ones with the gutter-mouth].

Therefore the choice can be ...treat everyone with kid gloves and censor anything remotely related to an attack or a jibe or a barb....or assume [hope] intelligence and maturity will handle the 'minor' issues and just look after the 'major' which may be beyond reason....

#51 by Scribe Frogboy - 7/27/2003 3:24:47 PM Even drek gets download a lot for some reason.

1 entry found for dreck.
dreck ( P ) Pronunciation Key (drk)
n. Slang
Trash, especially inferior merchandise.


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[German, dirt, trash, and Yiddish drek, excrement both from Middle High German drec, from Old High German. See sker-3 in Indo-European Roots.]
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My comments were due to me being angry at yet another baseless and snide attack aimed at WC. Read the comments directly above mine:

Aaaahhhh this place drove away another brilliant artist?! All hail Deviant Art Great community.........great artists..............great friends............NO MODERATORS!!!!! Here Here Green Armani! Hail Deviant Art! FRIENDLY Community.......... Indeed GREAT Artists.....Great Friends INDEED.........AMEN TO NO MODERATORS....and art to your hearts content! Welcome to DA Apocalypse!!!!!!!!

Highly inflammatory stuff. Really, we have had enough of this. All we get is one thread after another issuing criticism without fact. Opinions fine, but you have to base them on something...

Personally I wish those who are disgruntled would just leave.

It takes a certain kind of arrogance to think that ones value is so great that they think their presence is so important that they stick around long after having publicly acclaimed other sites while denigrating this one.

I have no idea who Lady Ashaka is nor do I really care. I just wish she and her ilk would find somewhere else to perform their dramas.

quote: "all this rude responses filled with all type of sarcasm and mockery whenever an artist or user post or shows any type of concern in regards to a certain topic"

What are you saying? This sounds to me like the same argument I have (though stretched across a broad generality) about the message board. I don't like the way people get attakced by members here when they bring up controversial subjects and I've stated that on many occaisons. btw - the only reason some subjects are "controversial" is because of the behavior of some people on the message board.

If this is the case, could it be that you really have no idea who is a site admin and who is a member? Would you like this site better if everytime a member spoke out an admin jumped in and scolded them? I don't know what the answer is to improve a message board's manners but I certainly wouldn't accuse a site of crimes against artists unless the site staff were actually committing the crimes. Which I don't think is the case.

Another thought comes to mind, the sense of humor and familiarity. If we don't know we are being judged so harshly by the people around us, we might tend to be less guarded in our comments, assuming we are among friends and little jokes will be taken as harmless if that is the intent. If we suddenly realize there are people who are looking for slip-ups in our political-correctness we would be much more guarded in how we respond, knowing we are no longer just "among friends". Which way sounds more like a place you want to be? Which way sounds like there is some trust and some honor involved? Which one are you promoting?

Come on A67 or Lady Ahaska.........please answer DavidK's question....where, what, who etc. and give us some solutions of your own.If you feel something is not right tell us what it is.If you want us to listen to you and others and your "beefs" either as they say "put up or shut up" and i mean this in a very genuine and pleasant way. I am a newbie at designing and i thoroughly enjoy WC and i have asked for help etc. several times and the Community here from the top admins right down to the citizens have been terrific and helpful. I love it here and i know a lot of other people whether they be Artists or Appreciators do likewise and i am sure that WC will go from strength to strength.

seems Jafo said basically the same thing while I was typing mine...

#51 nice
solution, ask 2 cent per skin, 1 for the artist and 1 for WC.

Actually, If you dare to delve into the psychology of these rebel rousers you will find a motive more likely associated with not wanting to leave, with each apparition they bitterly complain about their mistreatment without really saying who mistreated them or when, ( i.e. examples.) They are people who are psychologically best described feeling as they deserve gratitude that has never been received or recognition that was never given for their perceived masterpieces. If they really wanted to go or if something was really a concern to them they would either just leave and not start a ridiculous thread about it or they would lay out a case by case analysis or the ‘wrongs’ committed…. I personally have a few log ons from Apocalypse and after hearing him whine like a baby I have decided to deep six it, I have never even heard of the others.

Just seen Brads main post - A67 perhaps you would like to respond to that as well...........or will there just be silence

Oh Fuzzy, just want to say I wasn't jumping on you. I myself yesterday wrote a post in response to those comments you quoted and then decided not to post it. It wasn't rude or inflammatory, but I do get a tad weary of people posting stuff akin to, "Oh, and you've been beating your wife again, haven't you?" as if such activity were a well established fact, when it isn't. But someone did take your comments and then made it sound as if it were a WC site pronouncement when you were just speaking for yourself.

Reminds me of that scene in MP...well looky here for something completely different:

WOMAN:
Well, how did you become King, then?
ARTHUR:
The Lady of the Lake,...
[angels sing]
...her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS:
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR:
Be quiet!
DENNIS:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR:
Shut up!
DENNIS:
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
ARTHUR:
Shut up, will you? Shut up!
DENNIS:
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR:
Shut up!
DENNIS:
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR:
Bloody peasant!
DENNIS:
Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Strangely, DavidK and I just quoted that very Python yesterday...

Put another way, "stuff" on this site gets downloaded a lot. A WHOLE LOT. Even drek gets download a lot for some reason. Yesterday's most popular wallpaper here got about 600 downloads. Can you find a wallpaper on dA with half that per day? A quarter that? A fifth of that? That's because dA is an art community. It'd designed for artists to put up their work (of all kinds) for personal use and sharing with friends. WinCustomize is a skin site designed to distribute skins, themes, and wallpapers to users on a massive scale.

Just to let you know....I had a wall posted on DA that got 2000 downloads in nearly 2 days. The reason that a wall doesn't always show any D/L's is because the artists didn't provide a zip file for it. I honestly don't understand why you can't see even Nikos leaving.......the best skinnner you've ever had. Yeah, yeah I know, it may have been an isloated incident......or is it?

I think if you are to have a wallpaper section and possibly having control of the submission quality is by leaving it up to the community. If a wall isn't well liked then it gets purged..........but then how is that determined? Ratings maybe.....downloads...not sure. At least DavidK is willing to open up to idea's of improving the situation rather then the majority just telling us to go ahead and leave.

I would love to come back to WC if it meant that artists were treated fairly. As far as proof.............the only obvious proof is from those that would actually go and delete all their work because they don't want to be a part of WC in that way. I myself deleted about 40 walls. That was a lot of worked spanned over several months. It wasn't any easy decision but one I am glad I made.

I'm on the same boat as A_67 if any of you question my ability to make decent images go ahead and visit me at DA http://greenarmani.deviantart.com/gallery

*Regrets that he ever started this thread* This is getting WAY out of hand. > > >

Don't feel bad E.H. .... It would have started some other way! This place is a soap opera and the drama never ends!

I think it was Nuvem that managed the record....around 10,000 downloads in 24 hours....a long time ago when the site was considerably smaller.

Just call it a 'perspective' thing...

Of course, Helder is a genuine master of the digital medium....and just about any other medium as well, as evidenced by his works at Devart...

Oops...should'a mentioned...that record was here, at Wincustomize.com...and actually a 'joke' wall submission designed as a piss-take on all of those XP-centric walls [so prevalent at the time]...

As far as proof............. the only obvious proof is from those that would actually go and delete all their work because they don't want to be a part of WC in that way.

Again, that doesn't tell much. What way? By which admins or members are you not treated fairly? And what did they do?

After reading all this, (well, most of it) It occurred to me how hungry I was. I'll be back in a bit with my dinner.

I love to eat and read. carry on, carry on..




[Message Edited]

Again, that doesn't tell much. What way? By which admins or members are you not treated fairly? And what did they do?

I agree, in what way have they been treated unfairly by moderators or admins here?

In what way has any artist or skinner been treated unfarily by moderators or skinners?

The problem is, when someone removes their works here, they are removing their own clout.  Anyone who wants to really make changes is better served by working with the community rather than trying to dictate to it.

A person's works are their resume. Like it or not, WinCustomize is the big leagues. It is the place where more people come to download this stuff than anywhere else on the Internet. So when someoene takes their ball and goes home, it removes any influence they have. I have no idea whether Green Armani or whoever Ap67 is a good skinner or not. I have no way to tell whether they are a valued contributor or just a blow hard because their stuff isn't on the site anymore.

As for Adni, he is still here and is regularly in the top 10 most popular authors. When Adni speaks, people listen preciesely because his work does a lot of the speaking for them.

Hmmm.....I know that when Nikos brought up points about the way the rankings was being changed (For better or worse mind you) he was berated and for a lack of a better word.....told to "Shut-up". Now you can try to disprove that but I recall it like it was yesterday because I recall being quite active in that discussion...even further I mentioned that he was being treated unfairly "then". Not sure if you care to recall that or maybe you didn't notice it....but any of you that do remember, will know what I'm talking about.

Let's see Frogboy....when you say that you could careless about the wallpaper gallery and if no one ever submits anything that you could care less.....wouldn't you say that is a low blow? The top of the WC food chain is saying things that to artists who are taking there time and effort to make them is just thrown away that easily. Hmmmmm....that's an example is it not?

Hmmm.....I know that when Nikos brought up points about the way the rankings was being changed (For better or worse mind you) he was berated and for a lack of a better word.....told to "Shut-up". Now you can try to disprove that but I recall it like it was yesterday because I recall being quite active in that discussion...even further I mentioned that he was being treated unfairly "then". Not sure if you care to recall that or maybe you didn't notice it....but any of you that do remember, will know what I'm talking about.

In what way was Adni "berated"? The new system doesn't coutn anonymous downloads for use in the top authors and skins selections anymore hence making it harder to tamper with. This was done for authors I might point out.

Let's see Frogboy....when you say that you could careless about the wallpaper gallery and if no one ever submits anything that you could care less.....wouldn't you say that is a low blow? The top of the WC food chain is saying things that to artists who are taking there time and effort to make them is just thrown away that easily. Hmmmmm....that's an example is it not?

And how is this treating artist "unfairly"? Because I personally don't care about the wallpaper section? And? I also don't care about the Beatnik section either. Does that mean that Beatnik skin authors are treated "unfairly"? Or what about Kewlpad? I don't care about that section either. Are they getting treated "unfairly" too?

What I don't like is the elitist attitude taken by a small number of artists who excplicitly have taken on the attitude that their works are doing us a favor rather than it being a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I personally resent the attitude that you and Ap67 and lady A have taken that we are somehow basically your servants to provide you with a "service".

That's the attitude that I don't like. That's what annoys us. That we're just your slaves. Because you're not paying us (actually at least in your case you took out a subscription but Ap67 and Lady A certainly didn't). But labor is expected in return. In short, people like Lady A and Ap67 see us as their slaves apparently.  And that attitude is something I and others find quite rankling.

And it's not enough for someone to just go somewhere else, they feel the need to make a post about it so that they can demonstrate to the world their self-righteousness. For they seem to truly and honestly believe that we are their slaves and any attitude that deviates from that they find too "uppity" for their tastes.

Let's be real clear here: We allow artists to freely submit their works here. We provide the storage and the bandwidth so that their work is exposed to millions of people. And we do this freely. We ask for nothing in return.

Yet somehow, some of you believe that we are getting something in addition out of this. That somehow we make a profit off yoru wallpapers.

What, afterall, was the context of my comment "I could care less if someone submts a wallpaper"? It was in the context of certain people acting like this site would be nothing or greatly diminished without wallpapers.

So frankly, I and many others have no problem seeing people with an elitist attitude go off somewhere else.

Here, people are judged based on their actual deeds. Their contributions to the community over a long period of time. And we don't look at the community as some sort of clique of elite users. We recognize that the community is made up by thousands of peopel all contributing in in different ways. We recognize that the community extends far beyond this particular website as well. If Kol or Chaninja were posting here they would be accorded great respect despite not having much or any things here -- because of their contributions to the community.

But those are people who have provided real contributions to the community. Not some relatively newcomers who popped in over the last several months thinking they are god's gift to the world.

Maybe that's not the perception you and Ap67 and Lady A want to give off. But that certainly is the perception you are giving in your writings and deeds.

Jafo. Yes, well, at first I was only going to quote "Help! Help! I'm being repressed," but then couldn't resist including the "moistened bint" bit also. A true classic.