I do not see why the mac people think we windows people are ripping their work.

but you must admit a mac does better with graphics.

c) Our community unable to compete with the Mac community's skinning prowess.

The majority Mac users are solely Mac users, right? They are fanatical about how Windows is the tool of the devil and Mac was created by God himself. So why worry about Mac skinners being better? They are not gonna jump ship just to skin Konfabulator on Windows. Are the widgets cross-platform? I don't see how they can be...so why even worry? Perhaps Windows users will port objects...but that's about it. That means Konfabulator has to start from scratch for Windows, create a new user-base...DesktopX has it beat by a mile.

Hus: Because Mac fetishism *is* cross-platform.

How many times a week do the kids come in and ask how to make their PC look just like a Mac? If the Konfabulator items aren't cross platform, I think you can bank on all the hottest Konfabulator objects being available for the Windows version. I kinda doubt they'll just make the app and rely on new users to skin it.

I think Frogboy is maybe overestimating the Mac-attack, but it will probably be another "XP Theme vs. Windowblinds"-style lovefest. On the bright side, there are a lot of other contenders to splinter the argument, like Talisman, Hoverdesk, Litestep, etc., etc.

No one likes added competition, though, and when it comes with the poseur-chic Macintosh mystique, it will be an added annoyance to us all.



[Message Edited]

Baker, you make a solid point, but they still have to hope that the program takes off and Windows users begin making objects for it. If it's only the developers porting and a select few making objects, all you will get is a another Samurize-like program, all the ability but a tiny user-base. Samurize has some really nice objects, but you don't hear a lot of noise about it. Konfabulator has to gain solid ground in the skinning market, which undoubtedly Stardock is the 600lb gorilla.

The desire of many to emulate the Mac interface on a PC is two-fold.....availability of hardware/cost factor....and the gee-whizz effect of 'hey look....my PC looks like a Mac, how 1337'.

Neither motivation is about superiority/preference, but about being DIFFERENT......to not look 'almost like bog-standard Windows' but to look 'almost like a totally different interface/computer family'.

I see the Mac progeny of glassy buttons being imitated on PC interfaces as just another fad....like BeOS interfaces of old.  They'll go away and eventually another 'fad/fashion' will supplant them.

As for Mac designers being 'superior'....more a case of a FAR greater field of PC skin designers and through simple case of numbers a large number of 'average' quality....example being if there was only ONE Mac designer and he was brilliant then sure, on average the Mac designer would be superior to the PC horde....but that is all about statistical modelling, not reality....

It's still killing me that people think this is a logical question, who cares what system or OS they're using, It's the people and the applications. Take Jairo for example, do you think that the stuff he does in photoshop is only possible because he has a pc? He could do the exact work running photoshop on a mac. Hardware (pc-mac) has nothing to do with what a PERSON can do with a program nor does it have anything to do with "which" people are using it. After using both your don't even think about it, the biggest difference between the two as far as skinning goes is mac still thinks it's good to just have one mouse button lol

damn bothersome that

the one button

Claims of rendering speeds seems to be the main stay from few MAC owners I know and have talked with.
That and the fact MAC is the system they learned as the tool of choice for graphics design in school.

Amy is a staunch MAC based Graphics Artist here in the Tampa Bay area and she swears by them and damns
PC's though she has never sat in front of a PC that I know of. odd that...

Here's my take...having just switched from Windows to Mac about a year ago.

Better skinners for Mac? No. I say that statement stems from the appearance the OS lends to the GUI. Quartz Extreme and OS X's font rendering capabilities really make the GUI pop. Skinning on the Mac platform is much more limited than Windows, especially XP. I have a state of the art workstation at work running XP and have it customized to the hilt. Even so, its looks like 98 compared to the GUI of my Mac. If Microsoft gets on par with Apple with the Longhorn OS with respect to font rendering and GUI implementation then all bets are off. Most of the better Mac GUI artists are from the old days and are elitists to the platform. William Bart is moving to dual platform skinning as we speak. Max Rudberg and Kevin Husted have been very amicable to porting their creations over to the XP theming scene. Maybe Mac skinners get the idea that they are better due to the fact that skinning Windows is "easier" because it has more complete and functional skinning applications to assemble the skins than OS X. Skinning OS X is a huge pain in the tush. In the end result, it's the art work that is the real basis for skinning and is equal with regard to talent.

"But having use Konfabulator, its objects are, on average, slicker than DesktopX objects. DesktopX's weather is nice. But Konfabulator's has nicer images and smoothly slides in and out to an expanded mode. There's more polish in the skins I've seen for the Mac, on average."

Well then, I humbly stand corrected. I admitted to not keeping up with DesktopX lately. I /love/ the program, but I fully admit I only play with it every now and then - and my beta's just getting older and older. =D

I can't argue about the comments about the Mac images and such though - that's what the Mac's always been about though. Slickness & style. Windows has always been stuck with the stigma of being the polar opposite of that, sadly.

Frogboy said:

So now Konfabulator is coming out for Windows. My view is, if Konfabulator becomes more popular somehow than DesktopX then we're a bunch of losers who deserve to be on the ash heap of history. With a 2 year head start and a lot more features (and DesktopX is cheaper!) the only way I can see DesktopX losing is through either a) Stardock sucking at development or Stardock sucking at marketing or c) Our community unable to compete with the Mac community's skinning prowess.

As someone who is an old hand at computer graphics on a Mac but quite new to skinning Windows, I can tell you that I agree with those who have said that the quality difference is more about the art and the artists than about either software or hardware. Having said that, a lot of my friends who are very talented artists won't even attempt skinning windows or windows apps. The reason? The art is only half the battle (at best) of skinning for windows. The technical aspects, coding and scripting, are the real barrier to most artists entering the arena, especially with programs like DesktopX.

If Stardock really wants to increase the userbase and especially wants to attract more talented artists in particular, I can tell you how to do it with one keyword: DOCUMENTATION! The improvements that have been made with the software are wonderful. I'm very excited and happy and working my tail off to learn them and publish some skins as soon as I can. But the lack of any documentation in some cases, or poorly written, confusing, or just plain inaccurate manuals, help, etc., in others is extremely frustrating.

I applaud those skinners who have learned the old fashioned way - "Use, Disect, Learn, Improve..." - as Martin says, but if you really want more artists to use your products, make them not only easier to use, but easier to learn. You need to demystify the process if you really want more good artists to become skinners. And yes, as someone else said here, skinning OS X and other Mac apps is also a pain. The big difference is, more experienced graphic artists are familiar with them than they are with Windows and Windows Apps.
[Message Edited]

right all, but the question isn't about the apps, the gui, the render speeds, the processors, slickness of movement, it's about whether mac has better skinners, which is the equivelant of asking which has better consumers, people that eat pepperoni pizza or the works?

I agree with Frogboy

Bakerstreet, get a blog.
I'll be the first to sign up to read them.

as for your first post here I have to think about that some more.

Are you saying that commercialism is good for skinning or bad?

Baker is not alone in what he says (which, by the way, is not a novel concept, thoughts like these have been around for years).

Wouldn't label it as good or bad, but merely different. With the change comes a change in attitude, which means some people leave and others join. Those that leave will probably think it's bad and those that are new will think it's good.

Anyhow, as soon as imitation begins to outweigh innovation, you're screwed.

DOCUMENTATION! The improvements that have been made with the software are wonderful. But the lack of any documentation in some cases, or poorly written, confusing, or just plain inaccurate manuals, help, etc., in others is extremely frustrating.

I couldn't agree more!

To clarify the 'commercialism' thing:

I saw a Discovery channel special on amateur rocketry recently; 15 foot rockets that went 30,000 feet up at Mach 2, costing thousands of dollars. There is no hope of 'sponsorship', nor do they intend to sell what they make. They do it for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. That is what I sense when I cruise the best work at Mac sites. These are very skilled folks who are enjoying making skins. I lost that a while back, as did many in the community, I think.

Around 2000, Jesha was doing the byte-audio thing, I was getting for-hire offers, skinz org was being slowly strangled, and you couldn't associate in IRC for 5 minutes without hearing about the business of skinning. I already had an ear full about how I was stupid for giving away my talent, for dropping $600 for Photoshop, etc. In the middle of it all Jesha comes to me and says "Hey, lets get to work!!"

Well, I didn't handle it very well and behaved like... well, like me. I should have said "No, thanks" and kept right on doing what I was doing, but I didn't. I lashed out at folks and let it ruin skinning for me. I think most would agree that the GUI Olympics debacle and other hardships of the time were extensions of that mood, and that many good skinners either went into seclusion, or left us entirely. I admire those that were able to weather that time without losing their drive.

We now have equilibrium to a point. Jesha seems to have found a really nice spot with SkinsFactory, and the astounding skins they make show that commercialism can be very good for art. Quality skins are being made througout the community, but you can feel a vacuum, right at the point that amateur work becomes professional-grade work. The Mac skinning sites don't seem to share that void.

There isn’t enough money to pay professionals for all the skins we need to energize the artform, so this community *needs* the elite hobbyist. To have a stable pool of such, we need to tune-out all the pressure to commercialize, and be satisfied with making beautiful UI for our peers. We can't feel silly for giving our skill away, or horribly wronged when it is stolen. Remember K-jofol? Remember Phong? I miss those days.

I'm not against selling art, nor am I ruling out my participation in such $$ $$ , but I think the pressure to 'take the next step' has a dampening effect on those who really aren’t interested in 'business'. I think equal parts of understanding from business people, and tolerance FOR them, could really set the right mood.

That is difficult on the internet, honestly. I'm working up something for JoeUser about this. Again, this is one guy's perspective, your own mileage may vary.



[Message Edited]

Well written and I tend to agree to a good amount.

While I get paid to help create skinning SOFTWARE. I don't get paid to make skins. But I still love doing it. I love seeing the cool new things that can be done.

That's one of the reasons I've been having such a blast with DesktopX lately. Being able to take a flash game and embed it in an interesting way has been immensely enjoyable. I've been learning Javascript and VBScript and doing interesting things with them that take me back to the early days.

But artwork is somethign I've always been weak at. And I'll be the first to admit that the biggest reason I don't create WindowBlinds skins is embarassment. I simply can't create skins that look as good as the other people around here.

There is also, not so much here but elsewhere, a tendancy of users to seem pretty damn ungrateful for the hard work skinners put into their work. People who don't make skins should be thankful for what is made. But often times, they'll write such vile comments which really can take the wind out of the enjoyment of skin creation.

My theory regarding the Mac users is that yes, I believe they are better skinners per capita because I suspect that many of those creating skins have day jobs that are (wait for it) graphics designers. So they go home and they make skins and such for fun.

I think it's also why there's so much skinning SOFTWARE on the PC. Lots of software developers by day who go home and tinker around at night.

On the Mac, Konfabulator has no real competition. On Windows, it has Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, Hoverdesk, the various shells, etc. to contend with.

My frustration is that the MEDIA tends to automatically think that Mac software is better. It is easier to write slick software for the Mac than it is for the PC. DesktopX, for instance, has to contend with Windows 98, Windows 98SE, Windows 2000, Windows XP and various slight differences in between (tons of system DLLs which are arbitrarily changed from version to version can affect us along with other thing slike video cards, start-up software, etc.). Other PC programs have to deal with the same thing. It may come as a rude awakening when Konfabulator comes out on the PC (or if I should say) and they discover that it is hard to get this stuff to work as slickly as they hope.

But I could be wrong and maybe Konfabulator will come out and make DesktopX a foot note and I can focus on game development instead.

Following your train of thought, if Konfabulator would come out on the PC, it could possibly be less popular than it is on the Mac and the quality of the skins would be lower, since there is more competition (assuming, for the sake of argument, that skins for the Mac version are incompatible with PC skins).

So what you are saying is that skinning on the pc is actually killing itself because there are so many apps. And to elaborate on that, it would be better for the quality if there were less apps to skin (which, while we're at it, would get more developement time and so on).

Now that's an interesting angle.

Well, no, I think he meant that there are PC users are more apt to be developers, and Mac users are more apt to be designers, just because of their history in each industry. I would have to agree. Granted, the more apps the more skinners you need.

Baker said:

There isn’t enough money to pay professionals for all the skins we need to energize the artform, so this community *needs* the elite hobbyist. To have a stable pool of such, we need to tune-out all the pressure to commercialize, and be satisfied with making beautiful UI for our peers.

I agree whole-heartedly. And we need not only to win back the hobbyists who got discouraged, but to attract new artists to the scene. One way to do that is as Baker suggested, a more welcoming, tolerant and supportive environment. Easy to say, tougher to do, I know. But there is definitely an identifiable inner circle here at WC and Stardock. You know who you/they are. Those that are in have so much more influence on the rest of the community than you may even realize.

Watch the message boards for a few weeks with this in mind... and see how newbies or citizens that get a friendly or welcoming response tend to come back and participate again and begin to get excited about creating. And watch how those who get ridiculed or rebuffed or just ignored tend to disappear. Most interesting of all is when one of the inner circle steps in and says, "Whoa... give so-and-so a break, guys." The turnaround in tone and attitude from others is amazing.

What I'm trying to say is that fostering a more open and welcoming environment here can't happen unless YOU in the inner circle make it happen. You are leaders and role models here whether you want to be or not.

Frogboy said:

But artwork is somethign I've always been weak at. And I'll be the first to admit that the biggest reason I don't create WindowBlinds skins is embarassment. I simply can't create skins that look as good as the other people around here.

And I would submit that the embarassment and/or frustration you feel about your artistic ability is very similar to the embarassment and frustration that a lot of very talented artists feel about the coding and scripting and technical aspects of skinning. As one of them, I can tell you that I love the art side of skinning and have a whole lot of ideas for making new skins. But right now, trying to learn all the behind the scenes stuff is really kicking my butt.

Which brings me back to my earlier point about documentation and help. I'm not just talking about manuals and tutorials either. Anyone visit the Skinning Message Board here lately? Not many others are either. If you're already an established skinner you can get a response fairly quickly, but even those in that group are posting their questions more and more often on the general board. If you're NOT in that group, you're lucky if you get any response beyond a link that may or may not be on point, or to be told to take apart XYZ skin and figure it out. Not exactly an ideal way to encourage participation and foster potential new talent.

I think some of that attitude comes back to Baker's point about the pressures to be a commercial skinner. New talent equals potential competition so let's not make it too easy. Maybe I'm off base here, but as someone relatively new here, that's how I see it after a few months. I'll keep at it because I'm hooked and I have that kind of drive. But I think we'll lose a lot of others if things stay as they are.

Sadly, I think people have come to expect to be able to attain any skill through knowledge. There is a great deal of 'Art', though, in both the development and graphical sides of skinning, and that really can't be fostered easily. This is a tinkerer's hobby, and if you aren't willing to tinker aimlessly (endlessly) you aren't gonna get it. Most people who dash in for help seem to be wanting to save themselves that time.

I'm not saying they have to reinvent the wheel. The thing is, though, you learn immense amounts during as you tinker and debug, most of which is unrelated to the task at hand... BUT will come into play later. Step by step help, to me, isn't always best, since you are letting them postpone familiarizing themselves with the software or format. I think that is why techies seem to fit-in faster than people who are primarily focused on graphics.

Community/documentation/tutorials are great, but it is like the difference between knowledge and understanding. You only have to browse the sections here and elsewhere to see all the perfectly executed glassy effects on skins that are pretty basically useless, or well-made skins with terrible aesthetics. They have knowledge with no understanding.

I think you find that expertise on your own, and all the time you spend flailing around hopelessly accumulates that experience. If people are kind of cold, it is probably because we feel they are hoping to skip all the parts we enjoyed doing ourselves.

Following your train of thought, if Konfabulator would come out on the PC, it could possibly be less popular than it is on the Mac and the quality of the skins would be lower, since there is more competition (assuming, for the sake of argument, that skins for the Mac version are incompatible with PC skins). So what you are saying is that skinning on the pc is actually killing itself because there are so many apps. And to elaborate on that, it would be better for the quality if there were less apps to skin (which, while we're at it, would get more developement time and so on). Now that's an interesting angle.

Wow, that's reading in something completely different than I intended.

My point was simply that the Mac user has a higher percentage of graphics designers because that's what Macs are used for. Meanwhile, the PC has more software because there are more software developers on the PC because there are ore people who do coding for a living on a PC and then go home and do coding for fun.

Quality of skinning on the PC is not related to the number of programs to skin.

Again Baker hits the nail on the head....

With skinning it's the journey way more than the arrival.

Taking shortcuts gets you there but you see bugger-all scenery along the way....and it's all about the scenery, not the standing around at the destination wondering 'what are we doing here?'....

But Jafo, your's is much more poetic...

ack, life designed in the trials and tribulations of skinning

who would have ever thought

oSoShameless.... when we tell someone to tear a skin apart and study it, we're not being cold. We're saying. learn it the same way we all did, coz until you do, we really can't help much.    More specific questions get better answers. The general "how do I skin?" is difficult to answer. .....   .... at least that's how I see it.

#45 by BakerStreet - 11/16/2003 7:14:59 PM Sadly, I think people have come to expect to be able to attain any skill through knowledge. There is a great deal of 'Art', though, in both the development and graphical sides of skinning, and that really can't be fostered easily. This is a tinkerer's hobby, and if you aren't willing to tinker aimlessly (endlessly) you aren't gonna get it. Most people who dash in for help seem to be wanting to save themselves that time.

#47 by Admin Jafo - 11/16/2003 7:25:37 PM Again Baker hits the nail on the head....With skinning it's the journey way more than the arrival.Taking shortcuts gets you there but you see bugger-all scenery along the way....and it's all about the scenery, not the standing around at the destination wondering 'what are we doing here?'....

I agree Baker hits the nail on the head when he says that "There is a great deal of 'Art'... that really can't be fostered easily." Which is exactly why we need to help those who have the 'Art" but struggle with the mechanics of putting a skin together. I'm not talking about shortcuts or hand-holding here. I'm talking about mentoring and coaching and providing access to accurate information.

There will always be those who will not listen or bother to RTFM But by taking this "sink or swim" approach, we will also lose some very good artists who just get too frustrated trying to figure the coding and the programs out by trial and error. I agree this is a tinkerer's art, but the tinkering side, the mechanics side, CAN be fostered and made easier. Several people have commented, Hippy comes to mind off the bat, that the artist population is higher in the Mac skinning community. If we really want to attract more artists, making them feel stupid or frustrated by leaving them to flounder is NOT the way to do it.

If the real goal here is to keep the skinning community small and tight, then this approach will do it. But then don't complain when the number of quality skinners and the level of slick, professional graphics is lacking. On the other hand, if we really want to get more talented artists involved, we need to make it a more attractive proposition with a bit more openness and mentoring.

One last thought... Experience can be a good teacher, but is not the only way to learn. One can make the same mistakes for years and call it experience.