Screenshots...The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

from JoeUser Forums
"The Good, The Bad and The Ugly"....not talking about screenshots themselves, but just trying to point out up front that this thread could easily go in that direction and I would rather that folks remain civil when posting in this thread about screenshots...Thanks ahead of time

I'm no legal expert....

I am of the opinion that a screenshot is like a photo. Whether it is a picture of your desktop you captured or a picture of a Disney character you took while on vacation, you own the picture, you don't own the content of the picture, if you didn't create it. The artist or copyright holder owns the content of the image. So I believe that you have a responsibility, if you display in public, to present the content in a positive light and if your "picture" doesn't redistribute the artist or copyright holder's original content without consent then it constitutes fair use. How you present that content in your picture is fair game as well, provided that the intent is not to defame or slander the artist or copyright holder. So if I displayed in public a picture I have of let's say Mickey Mouse and alter it so that he's standing there with his knickers around his ankles, then I'd expect that if Disney asked I'd have to remove the picture from the public's view, though Disney can't have the picture because I'm the one who took it with a digital camera then altered it.

I'm not saying that my view is correct, I just posting my viewpoint to get the discussion going so that in the end we all will benefit from having a clearer understanding.
46,380 views 31 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top

The whole realm of digital image intellectual property rights is still very much in the air.

As a practical reality, ones rights only go as far as the reach of their lawyers and wallets.  My own point of view is that the wishes of the artist should be considered very much even if you think the law is on your side.

The Skins Factory, who I consider to be a Stardock business partner, takes the view that a screenshot of their work that has been altered is NOT fair use. 

I think the legal issues on that are very murky and would go something like this: By altering the work of the artist, particularly one engaged in a business enterprise you are potentially misrepresenting their work which could potentially cause financial harm.

Let's use Apple as an example: One of Apple's arguments against Aqua skins at the time was that such skins gave a false representation of what the Mac interface was. Mac skins misrepresented the MacOS and therefore they had a legal right to put a stop to that. 

That happens to be a legal position I agree with btw. The problem comes into the realm of enforcement. You can't selectively enforce your intellectual property rights.  When Apple objected to *screenshots* of Aqua, we complied with their wishes and took them down along with skins that were up.  But Apple eventually stopped trying to enforce this and sites like AquaXP, Aqua-Soft, and other skin sites and even competing programs started including Aqua-like skins, themes, screenshots, etc.  This put us at a disadvantage that we eventually had to finally say "Okay we're going to let Aqua-like skins up here".  But if Apple were to request us to remove them, we would agree with their legal right to make this request so long as they made the same request of the other sites and followed-up vigorously on other sites.

In short, my legal opinion is that The Skins Factory objecting to screenshots of their skins that have been ALTERED may have merit depending on the circumstances. 

However, a screenshot of a skin that has NOT been altered is a different story.  If someone puts out a skin on a public site for download, I have the right to post a screenshot of myself running it. 

That said, IF a skinner came to me and politely asked me not to put up such a screenshot, I would probably remove it. But if the skinner was aggressively or made threats to me, I would be tempted to put up 10 such screenshots. (As someone who has been sued over the years on occasion I have a real sore spot on people making legal threats). 

But as a practical matter, like I said, your rights extend as far as your lawyers can reach. So if you feel your intellectual property rights have been violated, the BEST route - always - is to try to politely and nicely request that stop doing what is upsetting you.  Don't make threats. Don't be nasty about it. Pick your battles.

Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
My own point of view is that the wishes of the artist should be considered very much even if you think the law is on your side.


Pick your battles.


Yeah, right. If the world respected each other's rights and used a bit of common sense there would be less law suits and happier people.
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I agree with SD's statement.

I had made a wall which consisted of a my own rendition of the Grateful Dead 13-point Lightning Bolt and had submitted the wall. I realized about an hour later that I made a mistake by not asking the Grateful Dead Intellectual Property division for permission to use the bolt I had made based on their design.

I spoke with them and sent them a copy of the image I made.

They were very nice and said that they could not give me permission to use the bolt in any publications that could be publicly downloaded because they sell the rights to use the 13-point Lightning Bolt (which is a federal trademark) to various companies to use the image.

I meanwhile contacted Stardock/WC and requested they not consider the wall for use.

Everything ended up fine and I have permission to use the image I made as a Wallpaper on my personal computer, though I can not upload it in a Screenshot.

Anyway, this is the way I handled the mistake.


My 2 cents and the way I believe.
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
However, a screenshot of a skin that has NOT been altered is a different story. If someone puts out a skin on a public site for download, I have the right to post a screenshot of myself running it.



I totally agree. I think when we release our work people have a right to show it un-altered 100%. It's the altered part i don't like. Anyway 18 hours in front of a monitor is more than i can stand and i'm going to bed.

Night all.
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have a slightly different view concerning your photo analogy, which has even more bearing on skins which are often shown in screenshots.

Without getting into a discussion of 'what is art', a skin can be considered a work of art produced by it's owner. Primarily, it is intended as a visual art form; it's eye candy. It is, if you will, a 'mark' identifying a particular artist.

Take a wallpaper, for instance. If I download someone else's wallpaper and then distribute it without permission, that is a flat out rip. But if I design my own wallpaper from scratch, which uses the same look or design as someone else's and upload it, that could possibly be considered acceptable.

But back to screenshots. If I take a screenshot of my desktop while using someone else's skin, I've 'produced' something that uses someone else's image. I didn't try to reproduce it, I used it unaltered. There is really no argument that the artwork is not mine.

That leaves distribution. Is uploading a screenshot distribution? Take the wallpaper scenario. If I take someone else's wall, put it on my desktop, and post a screenshot of it, would that be seen as not acceptable?

The accepted practice, at least here at WC, is to have walls obscured so the original artwork can't be 'cut' out of the screenshot. Skins in screenshots aren't typically obscured. However, a skin can't be 'used' from a screenshot in the way a wall could.

At the very least, I think it would be good form to gain permission from artists whose skins are used in screenshots. That would give skin makers a say in how their work is displayed, but frankly, I don't see most of them having a problem with others using their work in screenshots, with the possible exception of commercial artists who have produced a work for a fee.
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Everything said so far is very reasonable and makes sense. I also agree that if asked, I'd remove a screenshot containing another skinner's work. Simply because I would prefer to be a part of a community that "lives" together...so to speak...rather than one that stands behind their defenses and lobs shots at each other.

Here's another scenario...
A screenshot that contains a "custom-colorized" WBSkin or ObjectDock. Is it reasonable to expect that a skinner would know that WindowBlinds and ObjectDock Plus offer built-in custom color support and by skinning for these apps, they could also reasonably expect that there are going to be screenshots containing their skins in other colors than they originally intended?

I purposely left out icons, because IconPackager doesn't change the icon colors "on the fly" like these two apps do, but rather you would have to manually manipulate...alter...the original images in Icon Developer to change the color of an IconPackage and if I need a color-specific set of icons to match my desktop, there are plenty of them out there.

One more scenario....
A screenshot that contains an app that can "auto" import the graphics from one app to another. An example of this would be the Right-Click Beta which can import graphics from a WindowBlinds skin. I also believe there is a XP Startmenu bar available for ObjectBar that can do the same as well. Oh and the powertoy that Microsoft released that auto-ports WinAMP skins to Windows Media Player. Though I have my doubts about that one since I believe the powertoy actually creates a permanent wmz file on the user's computer and uses it, whereas the other two do so on a temporary basis I believe.
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
That leaves distribution. Is uploading a screenshot distribution?



Isn't it? Isn't distribution anything that is considered downloaded by one entity to another? Don't you have to download the image to view it?
Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Here is my case and point:

He took our art and made a different skin and now is showing it. I haven't shown this to Warner Bros. but after all the changes they had us do on the WMP skin do you think they would be okay with how this looks? Using their graphics? Why hasn't this been removed after all the requests i've made? What gives this guy the right to take our artwork, mutilate it and release it for viewing? What if someone sees that and thinks we created it since it's the screenshot section. Christ i'm getting pissed all over again. I want it removed please. I did not give permission for that to be shown and it reflects badly on my company and on my client's intellectual property. Please remove it Brad. I do not want people thinking we created that. And i do not want people to think he works for us. People don't always read the description. Please remove this. Please.

View it: Link
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Funny, I never would have found or even looked for that screenshot without the link being posted here.

Even more funny, is the tone that you (TSF) are taking now. I read the comments at that link and it looks like you objected to the screenshot only after you and the other party started swapping insults. Your "toy" (art) was shared with the public, only now you don't like how they're playing with it, and since you view it as an insult, you want to stomp off like a spoiled brat. I have a nephew like that. The difference is that he's three years old.
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I agree with everything thats being said here, and will never intentionally infringe on any authors work. With that being said I want to state for the record that at any time if any author is unhappy with any screenshot that I do, that they dont have to go to Brad, just come to me and I will remove it without hesitation. I believe thats the way it should be handled.
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm feelin the love.
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
since you view it as an insult, you want to stomp off like a spoiled brat.



For someone who's been here for what 4 months now? You sure act like you're in the "know". Emails were exchanged asking for it to be taken down prior to the verbal insults on the screenshot. My "toy" as you put it was shared with the public but that doesn't mean people have the right to do with it as they please. So do me a favor go play with your nephew or better yet contribute something to the community besides a screenshot and your big mouth.
Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
TSF, and others, why do things need to come down to name calling?
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Because it aggravates me that some noob comes here and disrespects our skins "toys" and me. But you're right. I'm overworked and a little burnt. That probably has something to do with it.
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And RomanDA: ignore comments that are on your skins like i read on iRiver one. Keep up the good work. I'm taking some time off starting now...
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hmmm... I was just doing my duty and reading the comments as you asked on the link that you posted - then giving a "4 month" old WCer's take. I can't take into account what is unknown to me as you so aptly put.

You're right! My three year old nephew is more fun to play with - as is my 15 month old son.

Happy New Year!
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
heh okay Todd. Happy New Years. and to you RomanDA. Now i really got to go. Cya guys.
Reply #19 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hehe.... Jeff, you know damn well that I only made that skin to annoy you after you insulted my work. Your e-mails to me bordered on the insane. Anyway, don't worry any more Jeff, because BoXXi, (who you "F-----g Hate!") has already left the building.

P.S. there's a lesson for you to learn amongst all this, if you look for it. Though I doubt your ego will allow you to learn it.

Bye....missing you already....... Love you.
Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
TSF,

I will be happy to continue skinning, because if I got that offended that I stopped skinning, I would be the one to loose. I believe that people that slam on others work mainly do so out of some sort of frustration. I make skins and things for me, but granted when someone makes it their mission to slam on your work, it does feel like a personal attack; as I am well aware of. My word of advice is to take the good, ignore the slams, and just do your best. Let the slammers slam, its probably the only joy they get in life. Its only when you sink to their level that they win.

And happy new year to all... How about we all make a resolution to just be nice, and if you cant be nice... um.. Shut the heck up?

As said in one of the funniest (and dumbest) movies ever "Galaxy Quest":

"NEVER GIVE UP...... NEVER SURRENDER!!"
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
BoXXi and TSF are sittin in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g. Just kidding guys! HAPPY NEW YEAR
Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top
This is sad and cute at the same time

I'm not an artist or a skinner myself, though I am a writer and musician. If I saw something created that was a derivative of my work, and done in a way that people would know where the original content came from, I'd be flattered. If I personally felt that it was poorly done and detracted from the original, I'd still be flattered. If I felt that it surpassed the original, I would also be flattered.

Screenshots and photos, however, scan your ass for all I care. There's 'no photography' signs in certain places for several reasons, intellectual property being one of them. As for images that happen across your computer screen, I'd hate to dig through even caring about what gets into screenshots. It's a hard thing to manage or control once your material's out there.
Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jeff, you know damn well that I only made that skin to annoy you after you insulted my work.



The insult you mention was me saying your skin was big in a semi-sarcastic way. That was it. You're leaving the building? Seeeee ya.
Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top
A while back, Frogboy, did a small article about GUI Champion skins that were over looked. I had a couple skins in there but one made me tilt my head. I saw my "PerPlex" skin was colored green. (The original color is blue). To me, that was like taking the ThunderStorm windowblind and coloring it red and showing everyone what it looked like.

It was no big deal. It did have custom color support. I could have easily emailed him and politely asked to change the color. Which I'm sure he would of done with no problems. He's good like that.

The reason I mention this, is the talk about intellectual propety, my skin wasn't being shown right.

I'm just adding to the thread, trying to shed a little more light on the subject.

I hope I haven't talked out of place or upset anyone.
Reply #25 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I think it's important to remember that all this is murky from a legal point of view. Anyone who tells ou differently has probably never beein involved in a lawsuit.

That's why the BEST solution is for all parties to try to treat each other with respect. The ability to enforce ones intellectual property rights is depressingly difficult - believe me I know from experience with site flagrantly pirating our stuff or sites using our images and even derivatives of our logo.

So it's not a cut and dry thing. For instance, showing a screenshot of a WindowBlinds skin colorized as a different color would not constitute any sort of violation in my opinion. WindowBlinds is made to colorize skins on the fly and any skin author making skins for it knows this.

Moreover, the example I gave for The Skins Factory has to do with them making a commercial skin which is very different. When financial damage comes into play, things change.