Dear Devs ,please Introduce raiding into Sins.

from Sins Forums
Raiding , is a fleet objective to damage an enemies economy through the destruction of resource structures whilst avoiding confrontation with enemy fleets, using a small fast specialised group often engaging with the help of distraction and opportunistic timing.,

A successful raid will damage the economy more then the losses of the ships. A unsuccessful raid will damage their economy but the cost of your lost raiders hurts more.

How is raiding now?...(non-exisitent)

Ever played the AI to find when they send 2 cobalts on a raiding mission , the cobalts spend 10 minutes trying to take down 1 extractor , which gives you ample time to pick a convenient time to use your steamroll fleet to just pick em off.
Have you ever tried to send maybe a small fleet round the back , only to find theres nothing it can kill. Have you ever thought maybe the fleet points you spent on the small raiding party would have been better off as part of your steamroller because all they managed to do was kill one 250 credit asteroid and a builder. Does it feel like when a ship pops out of the shipyard its only mission is to be part of a steamroller fleet. Does it feel like two steamrollers are at a stand-off just waiting to try and double each other in fleet points , or waiting for an allied steamroller before 2v1ing steamrolling...and theres nothing else you can do with your ships other then this.

So how can raiding be implemented?

It is quite simple. ( not all need to be implemented but just ideas subject to balance)
resource asteroids health: 2500 hp -> 300 hp.
resource building lagtime: ,after a mine is destroyed , takes 1 minute before the mine is rebuildable on. (happens in EaW).
resource asteroid increase cost of replacement: As asteroids are replaced their cost increases. 250->300->500->1000->2000 capped.
builder replacement cost: maybe 1000 credits to replace a builder. (builders can also be another raiding target).
Trade posts reduced in hp
Refineries reduced in hp

By doing this , resource asteroids become vulnerable to small attacks. Players will have to be wary of keeping thier fleet bunched because it exposes the two other entry points into their empire to small attacks that do big damage.

To summarise , raiding is a HUGH element in RTS games because it breaks up the monotony of stand-offsm gives players something to do with ships other then macho up their steamroller , gives players the chance to get-back against a high eco player , is a tactic that is non-dependant on your maximum fleet cap ,introduces the ideas of chasing ,dodging , distraction , the theory of speed over power ,a counter to steamrolling , something that requires you to scout alot more and be warym and lastly a skill that will continually improve with players as they play the game more.

Sins needs it. I know theres like no dev time left , but this really needs to go in because gameplay at the multiplayer level is very monotonous and stale. Its almost like having Supreme commander with invulnerable resource buildings atm.
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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

How is raiding now?...(non-exisitent)
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You mean nasty as nasty gets!


So how can raiding be implemented?
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By using cap ships as part of the raid, or using a decently sized frigate force. Raiding does exist in game, and is devastating properly executed.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Ron, P5yy and I talked about the exact same thing on IRC last night He wants very small scale raiding to have a big enough impact, which I don't feel quite fits with the scope/scale of the game.

Granted, I think raiding was 'better' before the infinite resources change, because knocking out a few refineries made a pretty big dent. At least, much bigger than it would make now..
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
By using cap ships as part of the raid, or using a decently sized frigate force. Raiding does exist in game, and is devastating properly executed.
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A capship is too slow to raid. A raid should comprise of smaller ships
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
I think your scale is kind fo silly to expect 2 cobalts to do anything. And raids can be very effective with or without a cap ship.

If you want to raid with a Cap Ship, go with a Sova, and say 6 LRMs, find a weak spot and destroy buildings.

If you want to raid with Frigates, go with 4-8 Krosovs, and 6 LRMs, find a undefended planet and kill it.

The key to raiding in the late game is that you must do more than one, or one with a additional front line attack to really pull off a win.

You accurately point out the problem with raiding though- mines at least are just too tough, as are trade stations, but really when properly done this isnt a big deal.

The Big problem is like annatar points out- infinite resources makes the resources you destroyed practically not matter if the advantage in resource drop is taken advantage of immediately.

There is no possible way to cripple and economy with infinite resources unless it is extremely pervasive and rapid. The new economic system has effectively curtailed any real way of 'wearing the enemy out' over a period of time.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
OH and also people like to build Gauss when you raid... use ships to blow up the building before construction begins... its a crappy cheezy tactic, because the enemy loses resources before any investment. BUT the powerful build rate of the Gauss warrants this tactic, they are just too good and too big a threat to a raid considering they build THAT fast and THAT cheap to not use the cheezy tactic.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
infinite resources makes the resources you destroyed practically not matter if the advantage in resource drop is taken advantage of immediately.

There is no possible way to cripple and economy with infinite resources unless it is extremely pervasive and rapid. The new economic system has effectively curtailed any real way of 'wearing the enemy out' over a period of time.
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Quoted for emphasis.

Really, the most effective form of raiding you can do currently is a small fleet on the side to knock out easily accessible shipyards while your main fleet is destroying their main fleet, to prevent them from rebuilding as fast. But undefended and easy to reach shipyards is a rarity.

Unless you play very small maps, raiding just can't effectively mess with the other person's economy alone. You can raid to destroy planets, or knock out some key defenses quickly, but just speaking economically destroying a few mines isn't going to matter because each individual mine is only a small contribution to the economy, and refineries are just icing on the cake as well in that losing one won't set your base economy back, only make the 'boost' to it smaller.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

infinite resources makes the resources you destroyed practically not matter if the advantage in resource drop is taken advantage of immediately.

There is no possible way to cripple and economy with infinite resources unless it is extremely pervasive and rapid. The new economic system has effectively curtailed any real way of 'wearing the enemy out' over a period of time.


Quoted for emphasis.

Really, the most effective form of raiding you can do currently is a small fleet on the side to knock out easily accessible shipyards while your main fleet is destroying their main fleet, to prevent them from rebuilding as fast. But undefended and easy to reach shipyards is a rarity.

Unless you play very small maps, raiding just can't effectively mess with the other person's economy alone. You can raid to destroy planets, or knock out some key defenses quickly, but just speaking economically destroying a few mines isn't going to matter because each individual mine is only a small contribution to the economy, and refineries are just icing on the cake as well in that losing one won't set your base economy back, only make the 'boost' to it smaller.
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agreed. raiding is in and if executed properly can be very damaging. the force should be big enough to do real damage, but not too big to draw too many fleet point off your main fleet. 4 - 6 krosovs and a few lrms are sufficient, direct to ship combat vessels are unnecessary as direct confrontation is not the purpose and should be avoided as much as possible.

also I agree that the infinite economy thing makes it less effective. I just felt better with the old finite resource model. maybe boost refineries there, or have a mix in that some are infinite and some are not ( but that again touches the balance issue).
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Well, Derek and myself (BetaAlpha) had no problems raiding one of P5yy's colonies last night
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
It is situations like this that make me think that the finite resource system was better.

If you want a decent raiding fleet look to the pirates as an example. They don't come in with just a couple of gun frigates. They come in with a whole bunch of mixed ships. They have cruisers, siege frigs, and flak frigs. Granted any decently defended world can hold pirates off, but YOU are not an AI pirate, and if the world is undefended, and you catch them off guard then that attack could be devastating.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
exactly what did you do? was it really a raid? or was it a conquest? If you are killing the planet its no longer an economic raid.

Economic raids are pretty insubstantial now, but a planet killing raid is still important and is what I aim for past the early stages.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Well, Derek and myself (BetaAlpha) had no problems raiding one of P5yy's colonies last night
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LMAO you call that raiding? A combined steamroll fleet from two players, approx 1000 fleet points - aka 60 minutes of built-up fleet . Thats not raiding. Thats steamrolling. stop confusing yourself . And if you did raid ,since I was too busy helping my ally who was in deep poo poo on the other side of the system , I didnt feel it. Infact I didnt feel any threat from you two until you sent a double steamroll...

so....isnt that the problem with this game? shouldnt raids feel stronger and more effective. Because atm the only thing that really hurts is the combined steamroll.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Twas a small raiding fleet honest!
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Sova's Embargo ability. This ability (as well as the rocked pods) makes the Sova the perfect raiding cap ship to lead a small force.

Can't complain about free income either.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
a vasari capship has a siege platform. I only used it once and can't tell much of its usefulness, but thats also suggests good raiding capabilities. plus, you can use the carriers replicat ultimate on a siege frig to get 3 more which will create quite a nasty siege force.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Raiding is easy. I don't see the trouble. I just warp in with a capship and a few escorts and hammer away at things. Use more scouts on explore to get a better view of what's happening in a region.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
You guys are missing the point of what P5yy means.

He wants, in a nutshell: a small force to be able to have a considerable economic impact.

This is currently not possible. Raiding exists, but not in the way he wants it.

And I'm not supporting his point of view, just relaying what it is
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Because of the infinite resources Annatar11?
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
That and because of how large maps can be. If, as he wants, 2 cobalts can destroy a few mines, does it really matter when that player has 15 other planets with mines? The economic impact is minimal.

To quote Gauntlet:

There is no possible way to cripple and economy with infinite resources unless it is extremely pervasive and rapid.
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Basically, just disregarding the infinite part, unless you raid a majority of someone's planets (which due to map design is rarely possible as it's fairly easy to limit your empire to a few main entry points) and destroy a majority of his mines, he's barely going to feel it.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

That and because of how large maps can be. If, as he wants, 2 cobalts can destroy a few mines, does it really matter when that player has 15 other planets with mines? The economic impact is minimal.

To quote Gauntlet:

There is no possible way to cripple and economy with infinite resources unless it is extremely pervasive and rapid.


Basically, just disregarding the infinite part, unless you raid a majority of someone's planets (which due to map design is rarely possible as it's fairly easy to limit your empire to a few main entry points) and destroy a majority of his mines, he's barely going to feel it.

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well, if you put it this way, its more of a problem of having too many resources. if you do manage to destroy one or two planets and/ or their infrastructure (which you should be able to do with a well planed raid) it will make an impact on resource collection RATE. but as it stands, often enough you have quite substantial reserves, so you dont notice the lower rate of income. if you already had just enough to maintain a decent fleet and do some research, I am sure even such a comparatively minor raid would have the desired effect.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
So maybe have a timer for how long it takes to rebuild a mine once it is destroyed?

Personally, I kinda like the balance now. It would be a very different game if a few ships could easily wipe out an opponents economy and win the game.

Still, a small fleet can wipe out a few mines, a load of trader ships or even a planet before an opponent can sometimes react. This can add up to tilt the balance in the players favor.

So, raiding already seems to be a big enough part of the game IMO.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
A small fleet probably shouldn't be a couple cobalts, that seems like a silly level to be aiming for. With how powerful bomber stuffed hangar bays are, I wouldn't be sending capital ships around late game either unless you're actually against someone without them.

The mines are cheap enough that they probably should be expendable and easily dropped, but if you really want to damage an economy, you drop a max pop terran planet in ten seconds with a couple evacuators or some marza's. Even then, planetary defenses are such that a maxed out fortification is going to require a large fleet to meet and greet the enemy bombers and clean them off while you work on your targets even if you can completely avoid any gauss platforms.

A raiding force in sins to me seems like something more along the lines of a hundred fleet points in flak frigates and carriers with a couple siege frigates dropped in after you scrape off the enemy bombers. It's not a staying force, it's definitely not something you'd stick around against an enemy fleet with, but it would be the ideal for removing static defense threats and dealing economic damage.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
That's essentially one of the main points I tried to make, psychoak.

In the scope of the game, a raiding force of only a few ships makes no sense if it is allowed to do considerable damage. The scale of the raiding force needs to be consistent with the scale of the game, too. If you can have 500-600 fleet points worth of ships in a medium sized game, a fairly successful raiding force should be in the neighborhood of 100 fleet points, not a few frigates.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
I would say you have a better chance at raiding with the new Vasari ships. They even have a "raiding" cap ship. By using it's speed abilities you can outdistance the opfor and get into the heart of the empire, but still the time it takes to kill ANYTHING is crazy. Mines should have a reduction in HP, 2500? it takes 1 siege frig less time to kill a planet as it takes a Cobalt to kill a mine it seems like! (hmmm I might have to test that.)

Orbital instillations should all have vastly less HP, cept for Guass Cannon that are made for war. Trade posts having that much HP, it's a little overkill, but nice when the pirates come in because it gives you time to save things. either increase the cost of the mines/tradestations/refineries OR reduce their HP to make their loss faster/harder to replace. Maybe both.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
How is raiding now?...(non-exisitent)
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*snarf*

uh, play as the vasari p5y, play vasari
I can admit that some different changes to health could be in order (make resource structures such as ports and asteroid mines much MUCH weaker) but to say its nonexistant is ignorantly overboard.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

A small fleet probably shouldn't be a couple cobalts, that seems like a silly level to be aiming for. With how powerful bomber stuffed hangar bays are, I wouldn't be sending capital ships around late game either unless you're actually against someone without them.

The mines are cheap enough that they probably should be expendable and easily dropped, but if you really want to damage an economy, you drop a max pop terran planet in ten seconds with a couple evacuators or some marza's. Even then, planetary defenses are such that a maxed out fortification is going to require a large fleet to meet and greet the enemy bombers and clean them off while you work on your targets even if you can completely avoid any gauss platforms.

A raiding force in sins to me seems like something more along the lines of a hundred fleet points in flak frigates and carriers with a couple siege frigates dropped in after you scrape off the enemy bombers. It's not a staying force, it's definitely not something you'd stick around against an enemy fleet with, but it would be the ideal for removing static defense threats and dealing economic damage.
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the point is that defenses will not always be at max, not everywhere. essential to a good raid is to attack where defense are weak and avoid strong targets. and even if they do have widespread defenses that would pull their resources away from having a larger fleet i.e. a mobile force. in bigger games with more resources of course its possible that everything is just stuffed with defenses, but the you will also have the possibility of a) using a larger raiding force and b) replacing losses it will probably take.

but again, picking the right target is key. factors are:

* defenses
* worth to the enemy
* accessability

on a side note, hp on some structures could indeed be reduced, they take a bit long to destroy if you dont have a major fleet there.