Why is the AI so silly?

from Sins Forums
Got home from work, played this game about 5 hours with few interruptions. I played a 4v4 MP game that lasted about 2.5 hours before what was left of our team saw the writing on the wall and left. I had to host a game because nearly every game I tried to join had the host connection issue (seems common). Also I found it odd that I could not change the map or player slots once a game room is created. One player also lagged out from our game at the very start. The AI that took over for dropped/quitted players was useless. Last, I would prefer to see a faster speed available. But enough of that...

I really want to comment on the AI. My second game was another 2.5 hours that was an 8 planet 1v1 vs a hard computer. I had heard the AI wasn't all that great so I decided to skip straight to hard. Most of the game was stalemated around a dead asteroid field near me with mines I captured. First, the computer never captured those from me even though it held the system for prolonged periods. Second, when the computer did attack a planet later in the game (where I had no ships) it did not attack my builders as they continued building cannons which eventually warded them off. Third, the computer only colonized two of the four planets in it's area. They were volcanic but not colonizing them ultimately lead to the computer losing. In fact I believe the computer even had built enough civic research centers to buy the volcanic habitation tech...

Then there's the whole diplomacy issue which I haven't experienced directly but have read enough about to hold me off from my massive galaxy game until a patch. Plus it has it's own thread so no need to discuss here further.

I say these things because I enjoy it enough to know that I'll be playing it for quite some time. So if I'm already going to be playing I'd prefer to enjoy it as much as possible. Fixing the online issues and brightening up the AI will be the biggest step in that direction.
28,549 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Was it the "host rejection" problem? That is being fixed as we speak. If that wasn't the case, we are working non-stop to help players configure their systems for hosting. Hosting RTS games (peer to peer) is a growing problem with all games as there are more routers, internet security and firewalls being used.

The AI doesn't take over for dropped players. Originally, our opinion was that if players wanted to play against AI players they would have assigned AI players to the game or played singleplayer. It poses the problem of getting out of a game without surrendering if its only AI players left - that isn't want I wanted because I'm playing multiplayer but I'm forced to combat AI players because otherwise I have to surrender. Some players have expressed an interest in having the host select whether AI players cann take over or not and its being strongly considered.

As for the second paragraph: For the most part, reports on the unit, tactical and strategic AI from around the net have been that its actually quite good and better than most RTS games. This is an ongoing project that we hope to use human based online strategies to help improve. Regardless, there is clearly a bug in your case and and it'd be great if you could send the automatic record of the game to [email protected] and we'll gladly see what the problem is, fix it, and include the code in the next patch.

Thanks for the report :)

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Erm AI not good? hehehe I asked Craig this earlier and he said against 2 hard AI you would have quite a challenge and I can say Erm yeehaw you will be in deep shit :)

I am kinda suicidal so I went for 1 v 2 locked hard AI and two pirate bases see what happened:



I won that engagement because of my heavy use of kodiaks but payed dearly. I dont know if I will ever win the game cause they wont let me make a move hahaha I love it!!!

PS Damn you Craig but my screen fps went a bit down during this engagement!!!! hehehe
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I have a game going now with 9 AI on hard and a pirate base in each star system. I'm loving it. It is a stone cold stale mate across the board. The AI is really trying to use the pirates to get an edge it is very cool. I wish I could see the AI personalities since I set them to random. It appears to be a good mix what ever it is. Eight hours of play and we are all pretty much like we started. I wish the AI would team up to take out the pirates as that would make for an interesting turn of events.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
[quote]< and we'll gladly see what the problem is, fix it, and include the code in the next patch.


When is it due?
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Alright - we talked about Enemy AI - can we talk about Ally AI for a moment?

In a 10 player game I was playing yesterday, which so far lasted 5 hours - my Ally keeps requesting me to help.

I also keep hearing "I'm here to help!", however - the Ally is nowhere to be found!
I found myself in a huge battle, with some Ally ships simply "dropping by to say hello" before they head off elsewhere!

has anyone experienced this?
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

v0rt3x21, you can ask the AI to explicitly defend or attack a specific location if he is happy enough with you by selecting one of his planets or ships and clicking the appropriate button on the action grid. Otherwise, he may decide its not in his best interest to help you - he may have his own concerns and he definately has different priorities than you. Sometimes he will help, sometimes he won't so it's probably best to ask.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Yes I know :) I've done that - however - once the Ally AI was in that system - it stood still, thought about it for a moment, and then returned to other planets. :(

I was just sort of "expecting" help from him, since he's my ally.

Thanks for that.

Which actually brings me to my next point:

Loosing the ally status so quickly, in my opinion - if you do not fullfill his needs - is a bit harsh.

I've seen other threads fully discussing this, and I'm not sure what can be done at this point, so I'm sure you'll figure it out - but just because I am unable to destroy a specific target, I loose a quarter / half of the ally status.

Hmm...
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
"The AI doesn't take over for dropped players."

Lol? that explains why dropped players did nothing, and is a rather at least imo stupid(and since I think every rts since starcraft lets ai takeover I can't be alone on this) thing to do considering how often people end up dropping, having a bad ai as allie is better then going 1v2(esp. since buildings/planets etc don't explode, can you even force fire on planet once owned by allie now disc?).

As to odd AI, I was playing advent the other day 3 humans 1 hard ai, as luck would have it I had a cloud next to my homeworld, red ai kept attacking and running back to the cloud when my ships arrived, and though his fleet was about double mine, with cap ship skills I could have taken it, alas can't use them in cloud and would have taken a heavy losses.

Anyway red ai kept this massive fleet in this cloud for about 20 min killing the odd tradeship while I wiped out his planets, after killing his homeworld and about 5 other planets he finally moved it.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Lol? that explains why dropped players did nothing, and is a rather at least imo stupid(and since I think every rts since starcraft lets ai takeover I can't be alone on this) thing to do considering how often people end up dropping, having a bad ai as allie is better then going 1v2(esp. since buildings/planets etc don't explode, can you even force fire on planet once owned by allie now disc?).
End of quote

It may seem stupid to some however a lot of people feel that if they wanted to play AI players they would have played singleplayer or added them to the multiplayer game. They are in multiplayer to player humans and if the humans all drop they want the game to end not have to fight through a bunch of AI.

It's a tough decision, we may just have the host decide how he wants it to go.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
If your going that way you should have made it possible for people to join while playing, or give the planets to players allies, Not end up having teams unbalanced. I really doubt anyone find that good.

"They are in multiplayer to player humans and if the humans all drop they want the game to end not have to fight through a bunch of AI."

I agree with this, but am not talking about ALL dropping just 1 player, if worried about all humans dropping just make option for game to end when no longer humans on other team, though would prob. have to do something to stop people exploiting it for rankings.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

v0rt3x21, you can ask the AI to explicitly defend or attack a specific location if he is happy enough with you by selecting one of his planets or ships and clicking the appropriate button on the action grid. Otherwise, he may decide its not in his best interest to help you - he may have his own concerns and he definately has different priorities than you. Sometimes he will help, sometimes he won't so it's probably best to ask.


End of quote


Actually I went back in-game and checked out the matter in detail.

Turns out that my ALLY (!!) agreed to a diplomacy act with my enemy!

Whats everyone's thought on that?

It seems to me that the game is trying to sort of push you into diplomacy rather than destruction.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
The AI always has goals of its own :) Just because it's allied with you, doesn't mean it can't be allied with anyone else! I played an FFA online game a long time ago in beta where I was allied with 2 warring sides so they'd leave me alone and I could go kill another player with impunity, while the other few were throwing ships at each other :)
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Blair:

Yes it was the "host rejection" problem. I can host games just fine but there were several I couldn't join.

Now you said that AI players don't take over for dropped players. That's fine as long as the other players can control the dropped player's units and technology. I don't believe this to be the case but I could be wrong (I certainly didn't try during my game). One of these two things has to exist because there a multitude of reasons why people leave. Several of the reasons leave other players who want to finish the game but generally won't because now the sides are so unbalanced.

Back to the poor AI...I did play on a custom maps using in the game designer (not GalaxyForge). Perhaps that had something to do with it? I would send the recorded game to you but I can't find where it is nor do I know the file extension to search for.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I've also been amused by the volcanic planet gig, but it seems that given time the ai will eventually research to colonize the planets. I assume that if it's strapped for cash and resources it will try it's best to keep other priorities going first. This sometimes cripples them.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
For the most part, reports on the unit, tactical and strategic AI from around the net have been that its actually quite good and better than most RTS games.
End of quote

Hmm, I really don't know what to say to that. I can say that they can make be pretty fierce opponent at times, but I can't shake the feeling that the AI usually play like really "bad" human players. "Bad" not as in incompetent, but as in a bloody wanker.

I don't know how the Sins AI is programmed; whether they evaluate units on the fly or they are preprogrammed to use certain types of units for certain tasks. But in most of my AI games they seem always to favor a few very specific strategies, and has absolutely no quams about exploiting some of the game's (debatable) imbalance: the most blatant one being the siege frig rush. Being AI, they also have the natural ability to calculate risk, and will without fail turn and run at the beginning of an encounter if they determined the opposing force to be superior. All this makes AI very annoying opponents to play with, and that's not even considering their utter worthlessness as allies!